How to Sell Advice

Kevin C. Whelan: Hello my friend and
welcome to another episode of how to sell

advice the podcast all about helping you
package and sell your marketing expertise

not just your hands so you can build a
more leveraged and profitable business.

My name is Kevin Whelan and
I've got an interesting today.

I've got Reza Saeedi.

Reza is a marketing strategist and former
director of marketing at On Deck among

many other accomplishments and roles.

And in this episode we talk about
his transition from employee to

marketing consultant, advisor, CMO,
uh, where he was able to get a few

quick clients, uh, right off the
bat, right after leaving his job and.

And how he eventually ended up taking
on a new and exciting role at a company

called passage, which we'll get into and
how he plans to do advising on the side.

So I thought Reza had an interesting
story because he was able to find

success so quickly after leaving his job.

And that is a very difficult
thing for a lot of people.

Usually I recommend that you do
whatever work you can take on.

As a freelancer or consultant to get
at least a base of work going and

then build more leverage and profit
as you go along, but Reza was able to

jump right in and advise right away.

So we, we talk about things like, you
know, how he got into marketing, how

he was able to get those clients as
quickly as he did, uh, the various ways

he's been able to help clients and the
kind of challenges and questions they

have and a whole swath of other topics
that are super relevant if you're trying

to get into this strategic marketing
advisor role, fractional CMO role.

And so we talk all about the
business model and some of the

various factors that go into it.

So without any further ado, I'll get into
it and I'll see you on the other end.

Reza.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Really excited to talk to you about
your career and your path from

going from in house to consulting,
advising, interim leadership, and

transitioning again, back in house
and doing some advising on the side.

So you've had, you have an interesting
background and story, and I thought

you'd be a perfect person to bring
onto the podcast to show people what

you've been through and how you've kind
of transitioned through in and out of

working and advising and consulting.

So thank you for joining us today.

Uh, how are you so far in this
fine Friday, Friday morning?

Thanks, Kevin, super excited to be here.

It's been a busy, but amazing week.

So excited to be wrapping
it up with you here.

Yeah.

So you're at passage now you're starting,
you're working in a new business.

We'll, we'll talk about that briefly.

So you're doing a kind of a
soft launch with them, a funded,

uh, government funded program.

It's a company, I guess
maybe you can talk about it.

That helps immigrants in Canada
for now connect with jobs.

Is that sort of the general concept of it?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So, uh, I can share a
bit more about passage.

So passage essentially, uh, is
empowering people who want to

be doing more with their lives.

So our philosophy is that there are
a lot of people with a lot of latent

potential sitting on the sidelines
because of the lack of, uh, because

of the lack of financial access.

So our mission is to provide these
individuals around the world with

access to life changing opportunities.

And to start with, we are matching top
international talent with opportunities

in Canada and help fund their journey.

And the sort of the secret sauce I'd
say to passages that is why it's so

interesting and so exciting for me.

Um, and excited to be sharing it
with the world very soon as well.

It's not just about doing.

And any educational or career
opportunities, it's essentially

enabling those destination countries
and destination environments.

In this case, Canada, that we are
launching with to also be thriving

in the sense that if you're bringing,
bringing international talent from these

different countries around the world,
we are also making sure that they're

coming here and attending opportunities
and graduating from opportunities or

essentially starting careers that are
contributing to Canada's economy as well.

So it's a win win for.

It's for the society and
for individuals at large.

Yeah, I love that.

I love that integration piece around, you
know, connecting people with the economy

because without that traction, then it
becomes very difficult for immigrants to

plug into the economy, which is essential.

And we're, we're in a time now where
people are migrating all over the world.

It's, you know, you're just seeing
it across the world with, uh, with

that, and especially here in Canada.

So that's.

Great concept, and I'm glad to see that
that's, uh, getting up and running.

Um, tell us, how did
you get into marketing?

How did you sort of, what was
your origin story, if you will?

And how did you end up here today?

So fun fact, I actually went to school
and started out my career as a chemical

engineer, which I've realized a lot
of the people in marketing and sales

have actually gone through as well.

But soon I realized my love for
business, marketing, uh, startups

and generally just building things.

And that passion at the time, we were
talking 10 plus years ago, combined with

a very close friend of mine, this is back
when I was studying and sort of graduated

from a university in the UK, close friend
of mine quoting his very predictable and

safe job as a lawyer, so that Me realizing
that I'm not going to be a fit for being

an engineer for the rest of my life
and combined with sort of that exposure

encouraged me to do the same thing.

So I went and started my own business at
two sided hiring marketplace, ended up

becoming a hiring marketplace, uh, after
a bunch of pivots and ever since then, for

the last decade or so, I've been leading,
uh, marketing and growth, um, as a first

ish, I would say first, second, third, uh,
marketer at now five early stage startups.

Wow.

Yeah.

I love that.

Uh, first of all, you're the second
chemical engineer I've spoken to

in a couple of weeks with Dylan
Bridger, who did a workshop on

copywriting and email marketing.

Also a trained engineer who realized this
isn't what I want to do with my life.

And I love that you used to kind
of started a business as a way

to get into being a marketer.

It's like, you, you know, you, you
want credentials, we'll go start

something, go build something, and
then you'll develop skills, you know,

coming into it sideways that can lead
to a whole bunch of opportunities.

So what happened to that in the end?

Did it, did you end up selling
it or did it just kind of

fizzle out or how did that go?

Yeah, we went at it for
about two and a half years.

We had a mini exit, I would say.

So we ended up sort of, uh, giving the
back end of our platform to a local

publishing company that ended up sort
of using it for their own purposes.

At the time they were
building something similar.

So it was a very amazing
learning opportunity.

I'd say it wasn't a huge exit opportunity,
but at the time, at the same time,

we were able to translate it into
something useful, uh, coming out of it.

And then I, at the time I had the
opportunity to move to a new country,

Canada, where I am right now.

And I call home.

And, um, sort of that felt like a
natural transition to either looking

into starting something here or
joining an early stage environment.

Right.

And so you ended up, at on deck, I think
when you kind of joined the mindshare

group and you were, and that was like kind
of after a series of marketing jobs that

you had, and it sounded like you based
on doing some LinkedIn profiling view, it

sounded like you had a role you got in.

Is as a leader in the marketing
department, growth, and then

you sort of developed as the
head of growth at some point.

And then you were like, you were
embarking on, you left the on deck and,

uh, which is a very well known, uh, I
guess, cohort training, uh, business.

If I'm not, you know, miss
misspeaking, but you left there

and then you went into consulting.

And so what made, what compelled you to,
to dabble at this world of independent?

consulting, advising, interim
leadership, and why not just dive

right into the next career opportunity?

Yeah, that's a great question.

I think it's super relevant to
the MindShare community as well.

So probably like taking a few steps
back, I've always throughout my career,

even before OnDeck, I've formally or
informally advised early stage founders.

So having started as a founder and
gone into working at a bunch of early

stage startups, I had this natural
passion and love for helping early stage

founders because I love to build and I
love helping people who are building.

So, um, marketing growth, revenue
being my sort of area of expertise.

I wanted to enable.

Founder friends or people
I'm being referred to.

So helping them out, but it was
kind of informal on an hourly basis.

It was never something that I really
relied on, uh, or really invested time in.

But during OnDeck, so going back to a
question as I was sort of wrapping up

with OnDeck and OnDeck is like the way
you explained it makes a lot of sense.

But OnDeck throughout my time, about
two, two and a half plus years, went

through a lot of transitions as a company
and the way we position ourselves.

And now right now it's OnDeck has
actually gone back to its roots of.

Providing founders with support.

They need to essentially start
a company from very early days.

So I'm super excited about the direction
that the company is taking with on deck.

It was a very natural transition towards
the end of my time there, where I was

essentially being a community of founders.

I was as part of my job, helping run
office hours for the founders and really

help them understand their go to market.

Distribution channels, what works,
what doesn't work, how do we

build an experimentation pipeline?

Um, all that fun stuff that I, I really
consider fun and really enjoyable

because there's no right or wrong answer
and it really comes down to doing a

lot of things, understanding your, uh,
ideal audiences and really testing,

iterating and realizing what works.

But there are areas that you can
essentially be very confident that because

you are operating in the space for these
type of customers based on past experience

or based on existing competitive data, you
are going to be getting X or Y results.

So as part of that, I, I started
working very naturally running

these office hours or the founders.

And I found it, it was kind of a reminder
for me of how much I enjoy doing and

getting exposed to, say, I was running
it on Thursdays and Fridays and there

was a, like a Calendly forum and every
one of those founders would come to

you with a different type of problem.

So within that forum, there
was a questions like, what is

your biggest GTM challenge?

And they would fill it out and as, as
different as they were, they all had sort

of the same sort of confusion within them.

And really you could categorize the
questions within like five categories.

So that was interesting to see.

What kind of question
was you there though?

What kind of questions were they asking?

What were those just out of curiosity?

What's that common thread?

Just prep, I'm going to answer by
prefacing to say that on deck doesn't

really, it's very agnostic when it
comes to industry or type of businesses.

So sector wise.

So it was interesting that in a given day
you would get, you would be talking to a

B2B company serving mid market to like,
uh, Direct to consumer app and really for

this stage of companies having raised a
seed round or just getting ready for a

series, series a, or in some cases just
being an idea company, idea stage company,

just contemplating and deciding between
which of the two ideas should I go with

and how do I, how do I validate that?

How do I do customer
discovery around that?

I think it was, it was mostly, so
depending on the type of companies,

there was a questions ranging from,
again, what I just said, how do I

go about asking the right questions?

Which one should I really go deep down
in and, um, how do I optimize my landing

page, uh, to increase conversion to
then how do I increase like really

the question of what are the type five
channels I should be investing in?

Should I do pay?

Should I do organic?

Uh, what's the right mix of channels?

Uh, what is the right mix of channels?

Uh, look like, um, and occasionally
some sort of advice around.

Uh, raising funds as well.

And how do I again, do
positioning messaging?

So a lot of that, I'd say like product
marketing slash, um, finding the right

distribution strategy is, is, is, is
content the right sort of channel for us

to focus on, um, how long does it take
for it, uh, for it, for it to yield.

Um, and yeah, I'd say like, it really
comes down to early stage founders.

Debating between whether or not I
should be investing in paid channels.

Or should I, how, how long should I
be going at sort of exhausting the

organic channels, my community, my
referrals, my word of mouth before I

invest in something and how do I make
sure that it's going to yield results?

And the honest answer is that you wouldn't
know in most cases until you actually try.

There are some educated
guesses you can make.

Uh, but yeah.

Yeah.

Interesting that like a lot of that.

So strategy.

And, uh, I mean, we're all
trying when you're creating

something new, that's a bit novel.

You're always trying to figure
out, is this thing going to

work and do people want this?

Or am I just obsessed with an
idea that frankly, the, the

world isn't even looking for?

And, uh, and it's funny that all
industries, all businesses more or less

have the same categories of problems.

And that's why even my methodology
that I teach is like, yeah, let's

get strategy and messaging completed.

Let's figure out some analytics
and then let's go run experiments.

Let's get a landing
page on a website going.

Yeah.

So you can start to invite people back
to it, but there's no point in running

ads until you've kind of, you know,
spoken to people, done some of that

strategy, done some of that research.

And it's all the same sort of layers,
no matter what the business is.

And sometimes you can
fast track through them.

And sometimes you have to really
spend more time at earlier stages.

But I always akin it to kind of like,
it's like a doctor's able to see

all kinds of people because people
all have the same general anatomy.

Um, but it's like how you, how
you interface with that person

and what's the right levers to.

Explore and, you know,
that's the fun of our job.

So that kind of brings
us back to our question.

So you were actually doing some, you
were leading some of these calls and

presumably doing a bit of mentoring and,
and helping people think through some

of these questions along the way, you
weren't just marketing on deck, you were.

Very involved.

It sounds like in the
delivery of the program.

And, um, so you've, you obviously
have this bent toward startup, uh,

interest and that because you're
kind of scratching your own itch, you

figured marketing is very much related
to product price place promotion.

And so now you're kind of
helping people do that.

And you're sort of transitioning into a
growth revenue marketing kind of capacity.

Um, is, so then what, what, what
specifically then let's go back to

that question, what made you want to
go into consulting advising interim?

Is it just the next independent
version of the same thing

you were doing with the job?

Yeah, so continuing down that thread,
having those conversations made me

realize how much I love it, how much I
love mentoring, teaching, it's always

been a consistent theme in my life, in my
career, I was a private chemistry tutor

when I was in my secondary university,
just teaching somebody who I'm proudly,

I can proudly say, as a side note, went
from having a C grade to an A plus grade,

I was a grading scheme back in the UK,
and then going on to do a PhD in chemistry

at the university of British Columbia.

So, uh, from the UK.

So I know that, that, that, that student
of mine, it was just a backstory.

So even from that, that
age, I just love teaching.

So that the theme sort of kept coming
back for me while I was doing that.

And then as I was wrapping up my
time at on deck, um, I naturally was

having a bunch of conversations that,
uh, with founders, um, that really.

Sort of provided this environment
for me to be taking this, this

conversation more seriously.

And these were the founders
who basically needed more help.

And around that time, I sort of started
learning more about a lot of people

were getting into these like fractional
consulting advisory on, obviously there

are having learned from you, there
are differences between how you like

talk about them and what each entails.

I kind of started introducing
that and sort of wanted to.

Um, scratch that itch a little bit
more and understand how far I can go.

And tied to that, I, I always said to
my network, I'm sort of doing this.

Um, I was having really
like exciting conversations.

So I ended up having around 12
conversations with different

founders, different companies at
different stages, considering joining

them and collaborating with them.

But while doing that, when I was chatting
with friends on my network, I always

said I am also open to considering
and looking at my next thing, assuming

it fits and checks the box or boxes.

I should say there are a couple
of things I can chat about it that

I sort of consider when I look at
my next thing, my career, my full

time thing, but at the time it just
felt like there wasn't any of that.

Any of the conversations I
was having wasn't really.

Fitting that bill.

And at the same time, these conversations
I was having with these founders, they

were, they were the type of companies and
kind of people that I wanted to help with.

And I thought there was an amazing fit
and I could really help these people.

So with that, I think people, which
people, the ones who ended up helping.

Yes.

The people I end up
advising and consulting.

So I'd say I have, like,
I wrote all of these down.

This was, um, around like, um, towards
the end of last year, I had around like 12

conversations and I think, um, we like, I
ended up sort of, uh, going forward with

three of those companies or helping them
out one within a fractional capacity.

So being very specific and one
and two in like a consulting

sort of a less hands on capacity.

Right.

So, okay.

So I guess you were thinking,
I'm going to leave this job.

I'm going to see what the
market, what I can do.

Independently for a little while.

Right.

Rather than just jump into the next thing,
it sounds like you have a criteria for

what you would look for in a new position.

And you maybe like finding
a job is a full time job.

Um, so you, between on deck and,
and your new current role, how

long was that period of time?

Was it like six months?

I'd say it was around
like three, four months.

Oh, three, four months.

And in that time you helped,
was it three organizations?

That's pretty good.

I mean, a lot of people don't, a
lot of people pick up one kind of

client at a time in the beginning,
you have a unique opportunity

because you can let people know that.

You're available for hire.

You're leaving this, this thing.

And you tend to kind of be able to shake
the tree of your network and people,

you know, apples tend to fall off.

And then, and then there's kind of this
long tail where you have to actually

market yourself and grow your business
actively through content and education.

Um, how were you able to generate
12 conversations so quickly?

Was it just because your network
is steeped in founders and people

you've kind of met over the years,
or what did you do specifically

to get those conversations going?

Yeah, that's a good question.

I think I would credit a lot of that to,
to my network at on deck, just being so

connected to founders and through every,
and this is a key part and probably

helpful for, for the community as well
through those, every conversation that I

was having that wasn't even relevant to
just catching up with friends and, and

my, uh, ex colleagues or anybody that I
was speaking with, I communicated this

sort of mission or this goal of mine
that, I am, this is what I'm focusing on.

And if I find this other opportunity
that takes X, Y, and Z, then I'm also

open to like a full time opportunity.

So, and when it came to the advisory
and, um, consulting side of things, I was

being very specific around like who I can
help with and what I can help them with.

So I think there's a difference between
being specific and niching down.

So I don't necessarily personally tell
people to niche down too early on.

I, I probably advise them to understand
what their strengths are and what

they want to be doing more of.

Because this is a, this is your unique
opportunity to actually wake up every

day and say, like, I'm going to be doing
these three things that maybe in my full

time job, I didn't have the opportunity
to do because I had to do everything,

uh, because I couldn't outsource them.

But right now you actually
have this unique opportunity.

If you're starting out to focus on
the kind of things that you want to be

doing and you feel like you're good at,
it's like that whole concept of Ikigai.

So in this case, it's
like, what am I good at?

What, what do the clients need
and what do I enjoy doing?

So I think relating it back to that, I
think there, I really understood that

and made it really, really specific.

And in my communications with
people, I made it really clear.

So precede to series a type
of companies where I've worked

out or have the experience.

And I'm going to be helping them
with, I can dive in to details, but

really like helping them with, uh,
finding scalable channels to, uh,

go from, uh, A to B, for example.

So I can get more specific around
this or positioning statements,

but I think, I think that was key.

But if I guess clients, and this
is something I've learned from you

and reading your, uh, blog posts
and emails that you send us super

helpful, like your buyers can find
10 people who look exactly like you.

Um, there's a good chance that
you're not going to be working

with them because, um, Yeah.

So I think, again, don't necessarily tell
people to niche down, but I think it's

important to like be very specific and do,
do a few things and do them really well.

Yeah.

It's interesting that you landed on the
pre seed, which usually is a group of

people who don't have a lot of money.

And usually that means, uh, a
lot of downward price pressure,

um, but they need you the most.

And so in those opportunities, did you
have to, did you have to change your

pricing structure and bring it down?

Or, or is it just like, look, you're going
to go down this venture, you're going

to invest the next years of your life.

Um, Yeah.

Yep.

You know, here's the, here's
the investment to work with me.

It's, it is what it is.

Like, how did you navigate fees,
commanding fees that you wanted?

Yeah, you're right.

I think those are more
challenging conversations to have.

I'd say.

Yeah.

Like one of the companies I worked with
was a pre seed company, but I think we

managed to sort of land on something
that communicated the value up front.

I think that that was important to sort
of really as detailed as possible, spell

out what you can expect in the next 90
days, three months and be able to deliver

on those and make it also risk free.

Again, one of the things I learned
chatting with you is making

it clear that if you realize
a month in, you're not a fit.

Give both sides the opportunity
to sort of opt out and sort of.

Discontinue the relationship.

So I think all of those, the risk, the
opportunity, and then once you deliver

the value and they see how much value
you're able to bring to the table, that

made it easier, but I think by and large,
in most of the conversations I had, yeah,

the, the investment ranges felt a bit
more difficult for pre seed company to

make work, especially like the fractional
model as well, but at the same time,

it's a low risk model if they want to
see results fast and they don't want us.

Then five months hiring somebody
full time and it doesn't make, really

make sense to hire someone within
that capacity full time as like the

second or third hire at the company.

So, um, overall the ROI felt felt
reasonable for that, those companies.

But I think you were right in general,
uh, that the later stage of the

company, um, probably the easier, the
investment conversation, but probably

the fit conversation would, might not
make as much sense for later search

companies as well, at least in my case.

Yeah, it would be interesting.

Cause if you kind of dive deeper
into why, why you like that precede

really what they're trying to
do is get traction with an idea.

And so.

You could theoretically apply that to a
more established business who maybe has

a bit of funding or has been in business
a while that needs to either make a pivot

or start a new product or, you know,
kind of expand in some kind of way where

there, where there is uncertainty again.

And if your core skill is, is going
from that zero to one or one to two.

And really getting that,
the rubber meeting the road.

Then you could theoretically apply that
same skillset to someone who's a little

further along, but maybe has gotten to a,
maybe they're plateauing a bit too early.

So they're not quite on it, but they're
close to it or they have good retention,

but they're not quite able to attract
people because their messaging is off.

So it's, you know, it's kind of
interesting rather than picking

a niche, picking a problem like.

Gaining traction where, where there's
uncertainty in either bringing a new

business or a new product to market,
uh, could be kind of a, a through line

to your work that, that you can talk
about ad nauseum, because anyone who

has that knows that, okay, like, I
think I'm close here, but I think I'm

just adjacent to the right messaging
or the right positioning for this.

I think, you know, I'm close and I think
that's, and I think your, your content

can resonate with people at different
levels of the spectrum, but it makes

sense in your short window that you
started with people you were most closely.

Relating to, and I think if you stuck
with it longer, as you go along further,

you might find that your core skill is
saying like, let's look for signs of

life, let's build around the kindling
that's working here and let's, you

know, follow your processes to talk to
customers, talk to people and validate

and get landing pages and then prove
concept before you go pour a bunch of.

Fuel on the fire with say
ads or some other channel.

Um, anyway, that's thinking a lot.

I love that.

I'm taking notes.

I'm learning from you here.

I think, yeah, I was trying to
minimize the number of variables

going into this new thing for me.

And the variable being trying out
this thing as, as a full time thing,

incorporating a company and sort
of working, like asking you about

all the accounting stuff, you know?

Yeah.

So I think.

Yeah, I think, and that was like the
comfortable, so that was the uncomfortable

side for me and the comfortable side.

So trying to find an intersection was
the type of companies I worked with.

So I was very confident going back
to the fit conversation that after

12, 12 conversations, actually, I
went back to maybe like three or

four of them and said this, this
actually, I don't think it works.

I don't think I can help here.

So I think that was that for me, it
gave me the confidence that like,

I can easily help these people.

And if again, I'm waking
up every day and feel like.

One, I'm not enjoying this and two,
I'm not really helping out this, this

founder because that's my, that's my
mission to help them because knowing

how, how many things they're juggling
with, knowing the founder life, I

wanted to be super helpful for them
and, and not really, I wasn't in it for

just making, making personal profit.

I think that that made it easier
as well, but I agree with you

in probably larger environments.

You could, you could apply this to
a segment of that business as well.

And just really any, any large
business, you could look at it

depending on the initiatives
and how the business is running.

You can look at every new thing
as, as its own like startup

because it's spinning out.

And, um, yeah, that's, that's an
interesting way of looking at things.

One thing I wanted to touch on
that like was, was a consistent

theme working with these startups.

And I don't know like how relevant it is.

So, so taking a tangent
here, it was interesting what

they felt those companies.

Needed versus what they actually needed.

So going back to like your conversations
with the, with the GP, with the

doctor, I think a lot of the times you
just go and say, I can, I can sleep

and they, they prescribe something
for you and you can sleep better.

But I think a good doctor actually takes
a step back and say, okay, so what are

you, what are you eating before bed?

How many hours before bed
are you stopping eating?

Are you doing your workout
before going to bed?

All of those things combined can actually
get you to a better outcome versus

prescribing something right off the bat.

And I think a lot of Marketers out
there should take that approach of,

especially in the advising world to
try to be more helpful and really doing

that discovery to a T so that they can
essentially prescribe the right thing.

And in some cases, the prescription can
be, I'm not the right kind of person.

I'm going to refer you to
some, so, or you probably don't

need this based on my opinion.

And like two of the three companies I
ended up working with, they sort of,

their problem statement was very different
from what I ended up doing for them.

And it took that first conversation
or in, in, in one of the cases, like.

Two or three conversations to really
tell them this is what we should be

doing and it's so rewarding after
a month You see that they come to

you and say, I'm glad we did this.

And they are in agreement
with what happened.

So that was very refreshing to see.

And it felt, it felt really good
as, and it was really one of

the highlights of my, my career.

I would say, yeah, really interesting
analogy there, you know, someone coming

looking for sleeping pills, but, and
they go to the doctor and, you know,

good doctors say, okay, let's, let's
actually look at what's going on here.

And let's think about this, you know,
like a professional and not just

write a prescription that will put
you to sleep, but won't actually fix.

Something going back to what you were
mentioning before about like, you

know, being helpful to, to founders,
especially in that early stage

where maybe they don't have a ton of
money and things are very uncertain.

I just want to point out like that,
that desire to make sure you get a

result for clients is always there
and that's what we want to be doing.

And if we feel like we're not,
we're not actually contributing,

we, we shouldn't consider ending an
engagement early and parting ways

and letting people or referring
or whatever and holding that idea.

And if you're the best
qualified person to help them.

Navigate uncertainty and you've done
it before and you know, what signs

of, you know, what to look for.

It's like a guide knows what to
listen for in the forest of there

are the jungles that other ones,
you know, other people won't, you

know, signs of a Jaguar or whatever
that other people are invisible to.

It's kind of like this balance
between I want to be helpful and if

it were easy and if you could just
pay someone to, to get you to result.

Uh, everyone would be Apple.

It's like, it's kind of
the thing I say, right?

Like everyone would be a trillion
dollar business if you could

just pay for a financial outcome.

So we always have to balance this.

Like, am I the best suited for this job?

And if so, knowing that like.

You're a figure you're feeling
your way in the dark, but at least

you're the most likely person to
be able to help them get there.

And that's a very difficult thing to
wrestle with when you're getting paid

good money to do, to basically help, like,
especially in the uncertain, the getting

the traction segment, it's a lot easier to
add fuel to fire later than it is to get

kindling going and get, you know, get an
initial flame going so that I can imagine

there's a lot of imposter syndrome.

So people who are working
in early stage, even C day.

There's a lot of, uh, there's gonna
be, like, there's gonna be difficulty

and, like, mentally, uh, And much of
the value is capitalized a year from

now, once the direction has been set.

So when you come in here and diagnose
the true cause of the issue and then

begin to fix it over three months,
like you're only really getting it,

like you're getting into those habits,
which we're going to talk about later.

Uh, you're getting into like, you're,
you're building the boat, as I say.

But three months, you're not going to
be getting the boat to Hawaii across the

ocean, like that's going to take longer.

And so much of the value is
actually gained many months

after that period of time.

And we just sort of have to
hold those ideas in our head.

Uh, and you kind of know intuitively
whether you're actually adding value or

whether you're wasting someone's time.

And you have to listen to that instinct,
but at the same time you have to remember

that, like, you're the best suited
person to help them explore the unknown.

And so I don't know how you, if that
played into your mind at all, like,

battling, am I adding value or not?

Because I can imagine at that
early stage it's uncertain, and

it needs more time to play out.

Because even the best ideas
don't get immediate traction.

They need to notice, and that takes
time, and then to buy in, and I don't

know if you have any thoughts on that,
if that resonates at all with you.

Yeah, I think it's important to continue
to examine that because again, I, I can

talk about my case of working in early
stage environments where there's a limited

number of people, everyone is sort of
specialized in doing certain things.

You can really clearly see
who's contributing, who is not.

And if you're going in as a consultant
or a fractional CMO, uh, it's like.

One is like, you can do self reflection
and realize like, how am I helping,

Build this ship and contribute to it.

And I mean, and in some cases I felt
like in some areas I was plateauing

a little bit with some of the
businesses and it was, it wasn't, I

couldn't, I couldn't go any further.

And in other cases I was excited and
I felt like I could, I could do more.

Um, I think it's important to
do that and just like realize

where that sweet spot is.

But then philosophically, if
you're helping out and then you

realize that you're sort of.

You hit a wall and you're not
really doing much for the business.

You could be helping out another
business that needs a lot of help.

So if you're doing it, you're kind of.

Spending your time on the wrong
thing as well and really not

contributing at the same time.

And this is easier said than done
because if you're getting paid

and doing something, even if it's
not at your full capacity and

you're not really enjoying it.

So all of this is with a caveat that
sometimes you just as, as a solopreneur

or as a, as a one person business, you
need to make the ends meet as well.

So this is like, obviously looking at
a perfect picture, but if you had the

option and the choice to work with the
companies that you're truly passionate

about, and they can see that, that
impact that you're making as well,

I think, I think you should do that.

Yeah, I think my north star is if
as long as I'm looking out for your

best interest, my client, and even
potential client, like people's best

interest at all times, but particularly
your clients and being a fiduciary.

Right.

I'm looking out for their interests above
my own and being transparent with my

own interests and aligning myself with
their interests as best as possible.

I think you're going
to be in a good place.

And if it means that like, look,
I can see where this is going

and it's going nowhere fast.

Usually it takes having been through
a couple engagements that hit a brick

wall and ended up kind of falling
apart to for you to then recognize

that pattern and preempt it next time.

Um, but you're right.

Like you want to be in part of being a
fiduciary part of being a, an advocate is.

Getting yourself in a financial
position through effective marketing

for marketing yourself effectively.

So you have more opportunities to lean on
so that you can turn away business and or

disconnect relationships where you can see
that there's no future and not feel like,

Oh, I got to make sure I pay my bills.

And that's why I say it's your, it's
your ethical duty to market yourself.

You know, 30 to 50 percent of
your time should be on biz dev and

working on your business and growing.

Because if you don't, you don't
have enough opportunities to then,

you know, be able to turn away
business that isn't a good fit.

And because you're always feeling like
I gotta make sure I feed the beast or

at least keep my family fed or whatever.

So it's an interesting dilemma to be in.

And I love that.

A couple, a couple of things to that.

So one is.

I didn't really get to that part
of like doing a really good job.

You look at my personal website right now.

It's not really doing a good job
sort of positioning me as who I

am and what kind of things I do.

I'm going to work on it.

Maybe by the time this podcast is
published, it's looking better.

So like I would say.

Doing content, making sure you're
present and where you should

be, where your audiences are.

I think it's super important in
marketing yourself to your audiences,

but then also consider word of mouth
and referrals as a strong marketing

engine and marketing channel as well.

So I don't know how, like, had I stayed
at this on this path, a longer had,

when I would have sort of saturated
this referral and word of mouth

channel, maybe, maybe very soon.

But I think that.

To go back to the early point of turning
down people and really communicate to

them that I'm not the right fit for this.

I can't help.

And this is the person
that we can help you.

I think that in it on itself is
like a very good indication that

you're in it for the long run.

And those people will remember you and
actually refer you to the right people.

So, and yeah, for me, it was, I
think, for better or worse, I.

Sooner than I expected, I landed
and sort of, um, was offered

to, to join joint passage.

So the exciting opportunity
that I couldn't turn down.

So, um, yeah, I really didn't get there.

So I can't really like speak
to the, the, the longer term

effective marketing channels.

No.

I know that I want to be doing, I
want to be helping founders for life.

So this is like, this is my philosophy
in whatever capacity, either a coffee

or like helping them as an advisor.

And that's why like early
stage building excites me.

Uh, but yeah, really, uh, Passage
really sort of tick all the boxes for

me for that next full time opportunity.

So, um, I've sort of stopped,
stopped things there.

Yeah.

So going back a little bit, you
said something before about like

how teaching was fundamental.

Is this something you enjoyed ever since
you were in school and probably before

that, and, and intersecting teaching
with your entrepreneurial experience

and then your experience in marketing.

I think advisors are
teachers and vice versa.

And I think it's like advising
is a form of teaching.

It's like a personal guide or a teacher.

Um, so it's just an interesting
thing that you mentioned there.

And I think more advisors and
consultants can do, can continue to

think of themselves as teachers, not
just in their marketing, but in how

they contextualize their methodology,
how they create some kind of a

framework around their best ideas.

And then teach it either for money
as a program or, uh, you know, in the

course of your consulting or as a course
or product or small digital products.

Um, like we don't have to wait until like,
we don't have to do some massive course

that, you know, makes millions of dollars.

We can, you know, the very
active consulting forces you

to think through your ideas.

Organize them if you're diligent and then,
and then you use that later as a teacher.

And that's to me, I think the path of
the consultant is going from doing,

which might be as a fractional marketing
manager, or it might be just as a

freelancer or an agency owner to, to
advising, uh, and then to teaching.

And I think it's kind of a, a spectrum
that if you're, if you're in that advisor

mindset, uh, it's just interesting.

You mentioned that earlier.

I wanted to come back to it.

Uh, I don't know if you have
any thoughts on teaching.

Do you, do you foresee yourself
being, doing more teaching in the

future or selling digital products,
educating that kind of thing?

Definitely.

I think it's something that I want
to be actively doing more of and

making more time for is really like
just wanting to do it is not enough.

I'm very aware of that.

So I definitely want to make time
more time for creating content.

Um, I'm actively sort of looking at
where I could be sort of doing some,

um, like teaching opportunities at
universities, maybe like a course or two.

Uh, but I, and yeah, I think
through content and just thinking

about, again, going back to like
your, what's your personal mission

is helping out more people.

If.

You and I are having this
conversation at a coffee shop.

It would just be the two of us getting
inspired and not even recording it.

But now this podcast has a potential
of impacting and changing at least

like five lives if they listen to it.

But with the reach that you
have probably a lot more people.

And I, I used to run two
podcasts as well, and it's.

It's just amazing.

I run a newsletter on the side as well.

The kind of people I'm sure you're
familiar with this and Kevin, I should

really give you the credit of you are
the kind of person that I learn from a

daily basis and you're just really good
at playing the long game and just doing

an amazing job of like all this teaching.

But when it comes to Anything in life,
but talking about like marketing advisory

and fractional CMO stuff, I think
mindset plays a huge role in all of that.

So I think I, I applied this, this like
philosophy mindset principles of it,

but I think just like watching you in
action as well has sort of impacted

me massively over the last year or so.

So I wanted to sort of give
you that kudos as well.

Um, but yeah, going back, going back
to, um, forgot what I was talking about.

We were talking about teaching,
yeah, teaching in general.

Yeah, teaching, yeah.

So I think, yeah, it's definitely
something I want to do more of and

just being able to like expand my
region and get, get to more people.

So like, often things I've done,
the newsletter, the podcast, it's

just really inspiring for me.

What really makes me happy at my core is
that stranger reaching out to me and say,

like, I don't know you, but this thing.

Today reading this changed my life.

And that, that's just that,
that, like that to me is the

purpose, purpose of life.

And you're turning this into like
a philosophy podcast now, but

that , I'm a philosophy major,
so that's, that's relevant.

I'm not a chemist, but I
have a philosophy major.

Um, but even like, even taking
that note a little further, right?

What I love about what you're working
on and what you're doing right

now is that you have what I call
the universal value proposition.

You have a through line, through
everything you're doing, which actually

allows you to put a lot of weight into it.

And your through line is, I help founders.

Get traction with their ideas and grow
them into real profitable businesses.

And maybe your language changes, or
you can put that on your website.

I really should use that.

Yeah.

But the cool thing about that is like,
it resonates deeply with you as the, as

a founder and an entrepreneur at heart.

And then a marketer kind of as
a secondary trait to that and an

analytical thinker, cause you're an
engineer and, uh, and then all of your

education stuff that folds into it.

And so you have these, as long
as your through line is, is,

is pointed in that direction.

And you're like, okay, yeah, my job takes
up, you know, the bulk of my hours, right.

And my energy, uh, but on the left
and right of that are up and down.

And I, on either side, I can advise part
time the right fit clients who maybe

can do email or asynchronous with the
occasional call on an evening or a weekend

or a lunch break, depending on what your,
your schedule is like, and, or I could

create a little product and, or I could
have my newsletter and, or I could have a

little book or something of that nature.

So you're, because you're,
you're actually aligned, right?

Even if you have a job and you're
doing some kind of an entrepreneurial,

you know, side project stuff.

Um, so it must feel good to feel that
aligned, it's consistent, coherent.

Well, I, I didn't really, I didn't
really feel that confident and good about

it until you sort of called this out.

So I appreciate you.

I mean, your, your stamp
of approval means a lot.

'cause you, you deal with
this stuff all the time.

I still feel like I can refine things
a little bit more, but I think this

North Star you call, you use North
Star saying just like it being.

Wanting to help people who are building,
wanting to build with people who are

building and changing the world and doing,
doing something impactful and positive

and yet like sort of applying that to
anything I do in terms of my career, at

least, and sort of talking about those
like criteria for, for me, next thing

on a good segue into that is something
that I always like talk about is people,

product, and then sort of personal
growth are the three things for me.

And then just hearing here being a
passage and like being exposed and

interviewing with people throughout
the interview process and just

like, Seeing the excitement for what
they're building and the type of

individuals that they are, that, that
is like sort of a motivator for me.

And they are the type of individuals
that I want to build with.

Uh, so that is, that is like something
that I'm excited to, to wake up to

every day and, um, feel like you're
truly like making a mark on the world,

especially with again, passage being
such a revolutionary idea and changing

people's, not just people's individuals
lives, but their family's lives and

their generations to comes, uh, to, to
come it's, it's just so, so fulfilling,

but also like, Scale, I think matters.

But also going back, back to what
I was saying about Yeah, exactly.

Just making, like even if you inspire one
person, that's what I'm trying to work on.

That, that, that, that can
have its ripple effects.

Well, that's the beauty of
our, of what we do as well.

Whether you're advising or, or if
your mission is to help founders

take ideas, profitable entities,
whatever, is that you get that personal

satisfaction, that reward totally.

Right.

Whether I'm helping, like when I help
individuals and do mentoring, like

I feel good knowing that I've helped
someone find clarity and their business

grows and they make more money and they
support their family and their mission.

And, uh, when I help entrepreneurs
grow in scale, like it's very personal.

There's no, it's, and I work
with mostly small businesses who

are one to 10 million, uh, or
maybe a little more sometimes.

And it's very personally rewarding
and teaching to me is the tip of that.

So like teaching is the highest
leverage form of thing you can do in

a digital world and mentoring, maybe
a little less leverage, but still very

rewarding and advising same thing.

And, um, so it's, it's important to
find that context of what you're doing

and that broader meaning, I think.

Right?

So you can, and like, you and
I are both immigrants, right?

To Canada and, um, big immigrant
population here and, and just tapping

into like that and helping, you know,
other immigrants and future generations.

And this is setting them up and really
connecting them with the economy,

which is what the country needs
most rather than just more people.

They need more connected people doing
their best work and not being exactly.

Left out.

Um, so it's great that you have some
of these things and you've got your

through line and you've got your
personal mission going with that.

So in terms of your side stuff now
going forward, so you have a job.

Uh, it sounds like you have
some flexibility to do stuff

around the hours of your job.

Uh, your plan is to take on select
advising clients still, obviously you

wouldn't do interim leadership roles cause
that would probably be too demanding.

But, uh, is that your plan now is
advising like what else is your, is

in your cards while you have this job?

Um, what surrounds that?

Yeah.

So I joined passage, uh, probably
exactly around two months ago

and it's been, it's been busy.

So excited.

I don't know again, when this
podcast is going to go live,

but, um, we are, we are launching
officially launching passage soon.

So do check out passage.

com.

So it's been busy.

It's been exciting.

Lots of hours.

And, um, I have, uh, I haven't actually
given it much thought, but what I'm

like, my Again, going back to everything
we've talked about so far is again,

with my personal Northstar being wanting
to help more businesses, startups,

founders, I want to, I want to sort
of look at this advisory, I'd say.

So like looking at helping people in,
um, whatever capacity that I'm able

to, and doesn't sort of downgrade my
performance, um, at passage, looking

at helping, helping more people with
an advisory sort of on the side.

Advisory capacity and, um, yeah, I
think there was some of the engagements

that I had was sort of having hourly
hourly calls, um, every week and

sort of being available on on slack
for quick questions, like, really

making it clear that what's the, um.

Expected sort of response time is within,
like, 12 to 12, 24 hours, but again,

just making sure that I'm able to help
out people that I'm excited about.

I'm excited to see grow.

I look at it as the same as sort
of my, my newsletter or my podcast.

I want to go back to doing it.

Whenever I do a podcast
like this, I'm just.

I love it.

It's so, so much good
stuff comes out of it.

And again, sharing it with the world
is so, so encouraging and inspiring.

I look at it the same way, uh,
this sort of advisory thing, even

if you're in a full time role.

And I listened to your podcast
with Kevin Lee, um, one of the

amazing marketers that I know.

And that conversation was
super inspiring to you.

You asked me, you actually
shared that podcast with me and

advised me to take a listen.

And I think it's something that
I think would actually boost

my, my day to day full time,
uh, Engagement and role as well.

If I'm exposed to more businesses at
a similar stage and helping them with

auditing their website or their product
marketing or their content strategy,

content road mapping, I think that could
translate itself into, uh, some of the

things that I'm doing for passage as well.

So, and if I'm as a hiring
manager, I would always.

Look, look at it as a positive thing.

If somebody is doing something on the
side of their job, it just makes them

a lot more focused, especially if
that's something that's relevant within

the industry or the sector, uh, or
the function that they're working in.

Yeah.

And we live in a very performance, like
you mentioned in a small organization,

you can tell if someone's pulling
the weight and contributing or not.

And it's really about
outcomes and performance.

Although you want to be obviously
cautious about work hours and

everything else, but it sounds like
you're putting in more hours than the

typical nine to five, which is very,
uh, typical of a, of a startup culture.

And, um, you know, so finding
ways to be flexible without.

Without taking away your productivity
and your energy from your main thing.

And that's about leverage, right?

Then teaching can be a way of doing
that, where it's like, maybe you show up

once a month, you do a little training
on Saturday morning or whatever.

Um, but, uh, there's many ways you
can approach that at the right levels

and advising is a very high leverage,
you know, high effective hourly rate

thing, especially when you have.

Unique skills and you have templates
or people that can help execute.

And you can say, go away, fill
out this workbook, send it to me.

And I'll give you some feedback on it.

Cause that'll show me
where your head is at.

Um, like things like that tools
can really help create additional

leverage and your relationships for
people to help implement your ideas.

And you know, the various other
ingredients training, for example, go

watch my video on this thing that I've,
that I've taught, like these are things

that can really make advising very low.

And that's one of the reasons I'm able
to have it lower for the mindshare

members is because I've got a DM
Slack DM access thing, uh, but it

compliments the live group calls
and it compliments the training.

And, uh, that makes it very
low labor intensity for me.

I can be like, show me your revenue sheet.

Show me this, do this.

And you know, so those are the tools
that you can use to make your life

less labor intensive as you, as you
have a full time gig and systemize some

of that process as much as you can.

I love that.

I'm trying to do more of
that and get better at that.

And I think I've noticed.

So through the two consulting
engagements that I had.

And this is more to contextualize
it and to tell people what

the engagement look like.

I think it was more in terms of acting as
a co pilot to the CEO or, and, or their

marketing director, marketing manager.

And it's the same way, I've had situations
where I've worked with a career coach

or just a personal, personal coach that
they might not even know much about you.

So they haven't done a ton of discoveries
like a therapist does, for example, but.

They ask you questions that
guides you in the right direction.

And within like being on the other
side of the table in those situations,

working with somebody, um, less
experienced marketing person, and

just seeing how much value you can
provide in a 30 minute call and how

you're able to steer them in the right
direction without having to do anything.

So I think you're, you're a big
advocate of like, you can bring a lot

to the table through just an advisory
model with having to do fractional

or, um, having to be fully hands on.

And I love to maybe touch on it
briefly now, or, uh, separately.

Uh, if you, if there's something you
can share in the links, but I think,

I think there is a lot that can be
a business are listening as well.

I totally encourage them to.

Bring on an advisor in the areas that they
think they need more help with, or they're

unsure if they're walking the right path.

I mean, it's the biggest hack you
can have is tapping into your decade

plus of experience and all the people
you've helped with and all the trial

and error that you've gone into.

Like some of the, some of the engagement
that going back to mindset, um, some of

the most effective work I've done has
been just a tip, just like, it's almost

like, like gently tipping something
in a new direction very slightly and,

or pointing attention to one or two
things or switching something out.

And it looks like a,
almost like slight of hand.

And the next thing, you
know, they're filling their.

Their, their spaces or their business.

And like, and, and what the mindset is,
is that it's not about deliverables.

People don't want deliverables.

They want results.

And it can be very weird and disconcerting
for you and the client when you go, Oh,

look, and you're just like, the light
bulb is not working, but like, you just

have to tighten it like six degrees.

Uh, and then they go, wait, we
just paid you 10 grand for that.

And you're like, yeah, but like, notice
how the room is really bright now.

And, uh, And so it can be very
disconcerting for you and them when

you can come to a result, which
happens the more you've seen your

pattern match, the more you work
with the same kinds of people.

Uh, but just asking the right questions,
you know, like not anybody does that.

Just asking the right discovery questions
and really diagnosing it in the right way.

Yeah.

I think that's a really key
under underscoring as well.

Uh, it's about that initial, you know,
diagnosing before subscribing, just like

the wind without pitching manifesto.

I don't know if you've read that by a
Blair grapevine around for over a decade.

It's called the wind without pitching.

Manifest.

I'll put it in the show
notes, uh, by Blair ends.

And he, one of the, one of
the mantras he has is we will

diagnose before we prescribe,
and it's such an important thing.

And if you're not sure what the problem
is, sometimes just doing a little

diagnosis engagement to figure it out,
uh, can be a really helpful way to

kind of kick off an engagement on the
right foot, solving the right problem.

Totally.

Yeah.

So last thing I want to touch on with
you, and then we'll wrap this up.

You're very kind of.

Uh, you're, you're into
productivity, um, systems, habits.

Tell me just like, what is your
personal operating system, if

you will, that allows you to be.

That allows you to work with startups.

Cause Jesus is like having,
I have two young kids.

So I, so I imagine working with early
stage startups is the exact same

thing, but like a different capacity.

Uh, how do you maintain your energy?

How do you maintain your
productivity and your output?

What are your core kind of pillars?

Uh, yeah, I can do an apple to apple
comparison in terms of if it's the

exact same thing, but It is, it is
challenging, but also rewarding at

the same time working at startups.

So productivity, I think we should
do a whole different episodes on

like systems and, uh, operating,
operating, uh, sort of methods.

Um, I love this stuff and I think I've
always been like this, but I read a lot.

And one thing I realized say like 10, 15
years ago, I've been reading from an early

age, but every time I was holding a book,
physical book, or later on Kindle, It

just really bugged me that I was digesting
this information and statistically you

will only retain 2 percent of the of the
information that you're you're reading.

And me reading a lot of non fictions
just made me feel really bad about that

is that I, uh, I want to be, I want to
be retaining more of this information.

So like highlighting, going back to
the notes is a big thing for me and I

use this app, Shameless Plot, um, an
app I love using called Readwise that

kind of collects your highlights and
sort of resurfaces them back to you.

Amazing team building a bootstrap company.

They're, they're, they're great.

So, uh, as part of that, I've sort
of been keeping building on, I think

that this whole like notion of, and
I learned this from Tiago Forte's,

um, second brain course is like
the concept of codes or capturing,

organizing, distilling, expressing.

So like this whole, like,
create creative model.

So I'm, I'm very good at
capturing and organizing.

I haven't been amazing at sort of
distilling and expressing my, my, my

personal knowledge management, but,
uh, personal knowledge base, sorry.

But I think, uh, It gives me a lot of
joy to be able to go back to journal

entries from like 15 years ago or
notes from a bunch of calls that I've

had and be able to like, take action
on them and turn them into something

useful for, for, uh, for the future.

So I use, I use a lot of
like, we can probably like.

Habit of different conversations,
several conversations about like tooling.

But I think one of the things I've
realized that has enabled me and

really helped me sort of, uh, boost
my engagement with founders is being,

being super organized and like one of
the founders that I worked with recently

really called this out, um, actually
like maybe two of the three that I

recently worked with and it's like a very
consistent theme is just, and I think

it's like speeds me up a lot in being
able to deliver and do what I'm good at.

Building the systems.

I also like being mindful of not over
optimizing the systems and adding too

many tools to the, to the, to the stack
and trying to also keeping it minimal.

But like, what's the minimum viable set
of tools that you need on top of your

Google calendar and your email to enable
you to operate at a higher efficiency.

So if you are at 80 percent right
now, can you get to like 85 percent

adding those tools to your stack?

And then like, what can you
do to your sleeve to make it

90%, et cetera, et cetera.

So.

Yeah, I think, I think it's important,
but also what I've realized is that

there could be a point in time,
one of the podcasts that I did,

uh, with my cohost, we did, we
actually did a full session on this.

You can actually get into the rabbit
hole of what is this next tool that I

should be exploring for my note taking.

And there's this like
interesting, yeah, exactly.

Shiny, shiny object syndrome.

Uh, there's this Belk, uh, Belk.

Uh, shape curve, uh, that we can probably
link it in the show notes where it shows

like Apple notes on the left hand side
and Apple notes on the right hand side

for people who are like great note takers.

They use Apple notes and those who have
no idea they use Apple notes and in

the middle, there's all these people
exploring this like 200 note taking tools.

So I think I'm now on sort of the
right hand side of the spectrum where

I'm like going back to Apple notes
and maybe having notion one thing

I've realized like a personal tip.

I'm going to wrap it up is that probably
there's no perfect tool and maybe you

should like create your own ideal stack.

So I'm right now, I'm not taking
in three different tools, notion,

reflect, apple notes, and occasionally
not occasionally very active.

I use day one for my journaling.

So, and I'm using what I'm
using consistently across

those is like a tagging system
and a classification system.

So if I need something to do with
marketing advisory or like career

principles, I can always find
it across four different places.

So there's no perfect tool.

Um, and I don't think
anybody can build it.

So it depends on the
context and situation.

Yeah, totally.

Well, I mean, if you have that
propensity for liking to gather and

organize and synthesize information,
first of all, that makes you a better

educator and a better advisor and makes.

You know, that goes like to my,
my Trello board as an example of

having some kind of a playbook.

I call it, I'm calling it idea management
at this point, where it's like store a

place to store all of your best ideas
into some kind of cohesive framework.

And I sell access to this with
membership, but also advisor operating

system that's available on my website.

Um, but like having some way to like,
okay, you've come up with a good

idea, a good method, good process.

How do you put that into some kind of an
ecosystem with the rest of your ideas?

And without over optimizing without
over, you know, cause it's going to be

different for every person, but at least.

Memorialize it in a column
or in it, whatever, like I

use Trello to store these.

And, um, it can really, really help
to like make your next engagement.

It feels like you're kind of unrolling
a tool belt, you know, like you

kind of come out and get the leather
satchel or whatever, and roll it out

and you've got all your different
tools and you're ready for operation.

So that's kind of how I feel with it.

But.

Do you exercise?

Is that part of your routine as well?

Or, uh, how's that going so far?

Yeah, exercise.

I talk about sleep a couple of times
and just like nutrition, sleep hygiene,

exercising has been a consistent part
of my routine for the, like I say, like

I've done it for the last 15 years, but
very seriously since like 2016 around the

time, actually, I moved to move to Canada.

And yeah, it's something that's a non
negotiable and that together with these

tools, I think that is also an enabler
to, to the kind of work that I do.

It's just like how much more your brain
can process, you know, throughout the day.

And those things are like small, small
adjustments, but sometimes taking a

specific supplement or making sure like
you work out in the morning, or if I

haven't worked out for a while, I realize
the difference, the Delta is very obvious.

So I think it's, it takes up some time.

I did this analysis.

I'm a geek when it comes to these things.

So like, Not this year.

Last year, I did the full analysis of
how much time I end up working out.

And it was about 10 percent of my entire
waking hours, which is not that much.

So every time I'm in the gym,
like if I go four or five times

a week, I'm like, I'm actually
spending a lot of time in the gym.

This is like, this is a huge time suck.

But then when you look at it, like,
I mean, 10 percent could be a lot

or it could be not that, not that
much, but then I was expecting

it to be a lot more than that.

But if you, if someone told you,
if you invest 10 percent of your

time now, and you're going to be
operating, like the whole thing

about health and fitness is that.

While you're here now, it can
actually help you live a better life.

And obviously you can get injured or
risks and, uh, there are other things

that can happen outside of, um, like the
predictable stuff that can cause your,

um, health that can harm your health.

But I think 10 percent isn't that much
of a huge investment and, um, there's

a lot of benefits that comes with it.

So it's even 20 minutes a day, even
like taking something like, you

know, showing up for 20 minutes
a day and be like, no excuses.

I'm going to work out for 20 minutes.

I find if I even do a 20 minute Peloton
ride or an exercise or whatever,

like I am like a way different human
for the entire day, or if I get 45

hours, yeah, I'm doing a 45 twice a
week and that's a definitely a key.

And actually, I feel really great today.

Like I did one this morning and then
I'll feel good again tomorrow with,

with or without an exercise, but I'll
try to do another at least 20 minutes

to kind of get the blood flowing.

But like the less time you have to
exercise, the more you actually need it.

It's just like meditation.

And, uh, and yeah, sleep is another
thing, although when you have little

kids, that gets even the best intentions
can sometimes get derailed with that one.

But, um, but it's so important to try
your best to give yourself good night's

sleep and get a little bit of exercise.

I know I'm like, I'm not a, I'm not an
exercise guru by any stretch, but it helps

so much to give you more clarity because
you're ultimately selling your brain.

Right.

And.

If that's not firing and clean and
feeling energized and with serotonin

and, you know, like then you're
not going to make as much money.

Like you just look at it that way.

You put 10 percent of your time into
your gym, I guarantee you'll make 10,

20, 30 percent more money and you'll
be healthier and happier along the way.

I just, I believe it.

You're right.

You're totally right.

And something I want to do more
of is actually just mental health.

There's meditating a lot more.

I keep falling off the track.

So, uh, I, it's something I'm
trying to actively, I use this app

called waking up with by Sam Harris.

So just as a, as a recommendation,
if somebody is using it and

yeah, I think that is also like.

You could argue that that's even more
important than physical health, mental.

So something, a resolution for me, I don't
really set resolutions, but something for

me to get better, get better at this year.

Awesome.

I love that.

Well, two last questions.

One, uh, what book, if, if anything
comes to mind and it doesn't have to be

definitive, that has made an impact on
you, a dramatic or significant impact

on you personally, professionally.

That, um, that you feel like has
been in some way, like a little

minor turning point or something
you come, come back to often.

Yeah.

One that is obviously so fundamental.

A lot of people have heard of it.

So, uh, probably just mentioned two.

So one is called meditations.

By Marcus Aurelius, uh, the Roman
emperor who was living, uh, being

an emperor, but living through a lot
of suffering throughout his time.

And this, this book is his journal entries
that was never meant to be published

and translated to, um, to our, uh,
generation and us being able to read it.

So with that in mind, it's, it's.

It's just such an amazing set of entries.

I remind myself of a lot of it
every day is based on this whole,

I guess the whole like Stoics and
Stoicism concept or way of living has

been built, uh, by from that book.

And everyone from Robert Green, Ryan
Holiday, who are promoting that,

Tim Ferriss sort of been taking a
lot of inspiration from that book.

Uh, and then the other one that I
read recently, so which is like,

probably like less fundamental.

It's a nonfiction called 4, 000 weeks,
which talks a lot about how finite

our time is 4, 000 weeks is an average
number of, uh, weeks that a living

person would leave by the, by the
time they die and live this planet.

So, and that's been an
inspiring read as well.

So highly recommend that one as well.

Awesome.

Thank you.

And last question, um, where can
people go to learn more about you?

Follow along, uh, email
us, that kind of thing.

Yeah, probably like the best place
and somewhere I need to get more

active at is, is, is, um, Twitter.

So, um, we can like, I can
provide the links and you

can put it in the show notes.

Um, it's R A Z S A E E D I, my handle.

I definitely want to just publicly
share more about my learnings,

like going back to the teaching.

So gonna do a lot more on that.

And then I.

Infrequently, I used to be very
consistent with it on a weekly

basis, publishing newsletter called
out of curiosity is where I share a

curated links of what I find useful.

So you can get access to that
within my Twitter bio as well.

Great.

And then obviously, yeah, Reza.

so is my, is my, is my website.

So check that out.

All the links are there.

Um, and I tend to sort of put up
my sort of book highlights and book

notes are as well, uh, been meaning
to write a lot more actively.

So look out for that too.

Um, and then obviously, like I
mentioned, check out, um, passage.

It's going to be.

Changing the world, hopefully
for the better very soon by 2030.

Our goal is to remove this financial
access problem for immigration

and study abroad for people.

So it's a big mission.

It's a big problem.

Um, as our founder, Martin calls it
a disease that exists in the world

that we need to fix and, uh, and
solve forever, especially today.

So, um, this is our goal.

We have, we have about six years to
solve it and we are super excited.

So check out our website
and join our mission.

That's great.

And it's not going to
be in Canada forever.

You hope to broaden
this to other countries?

Yep.

This is going to be a
global, global movement.

We are starting with Canada.

We think Canada needs a lot of help.

A lot of people want to come to
Canada for better opportunities

and Canada can provide that.

So it's a win win for people and
for, um, the society at large.

And we're going to expand this to not
just educational opportunities, but

career opportunities worldwide as well.

That's wonderful.

Well, good luck with you to you on
that mission and with this business

and continuing to follow your
through line of helping founders.

And by extension, many
other people, right?

The companies we help impact many others.

And, uh, so continue that through
line and, and, uh, we wish you well

in your journey and, and, uh, I look
forward to staying in touch with you

and learning all about the new projects
and whatnot that you're working on.

So thank you so much for, for being
such an open book for sharing your

journey and, and, uh, telling us about
how you made the leaps in and out of

advising as a, soon to be part time
advisor, but a full time consultant and

former employee and making that leap.

So really appreciate you
jumping on with us today, Reza.

Thanks Kevin.

This has been a lot of fun.

I appreciate you asking really good
questions and I'm excited to continue

being a part of MindShare community
and giving back as much as I can.

And that's it for the interview.

Thank you so much for listening
all the way to the end.

If you want to get more content to
resources like this head on over

to kevin.me and you'll find a crash
course on how to sell your expertise

as a marketer, how to go from
doing to advising to teaching your

expertise and how do you create more
leverage and profit in the process?

So that's all over there.

I've got a mini crash course,
right on the homepage.

You can get it and yeah.

Um, If you're interested in the community,
we've got a lot going on in the community.

We're starting to do.

A lot more member trainings as well.

We've got some AI training, some
personal branding, training, some

copywriting trainings and all kinds
of other stuff from the members of

Mindshare as well, which is really neat.

So if you're interested in any of that,
definitely think about the community.

It's a great place to learn and get
feedback from your peers network,

get advice, and ultimately help
you create a more leveraged and

profitable marketing practice.

That's it.

I will see you in the next episode.

Thanks again, as always.

And.

Stay tuned because I'll be doing probably
more solo podcast episodes just because I.

Can produce them a lot faster these days.

I'm quite busy on the consulting side
and, uh, I share a lot of private podcast,

kind of rough audio forums for members,
but I'd love to do a few more of these.

Solo episodes to kind of teach and
share some of the ideas so that

you have an idea of what we're
actually doing inside the membership.

So if you're curious about the membership,
you can head over to how to sell

advice.com and hit the membership tab.

And you'll see what that's all about.

Tons of training on business
model and marketing.

It's basically the business
side of marketing consulting.

So you can head on over
there and check that out.

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So if you're interested in, you see the
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Make sure you're signed on otherwise.

We'll see you next time.

The door is open.

That's all for now.

My friends.

Bye.