How to Sell Advice

Kevin C. Whelan:

Okay, Jordan, thanks for
coming on the podcast.

I was super excited to invite
you on when I heard a little,

a little bit of what you've been up
to since we've been talking last.

And so you're, you're, you're, what you've
been working on is transitioning from

freelancer in the weeds, doing
the execution work, maybe

even a narrow Portion of it.

Email was one of your main specialties
to more of a strategic capacity.

And

so, you know, there's signs of life
that you're headed in those directions.

And I was really curious
about how that's been going.

You've also been exploring a niche and I
wanted to talk to you about that as well,

because there's a lot of people that
are looking to transition out of done

for you freelancing services, being
one part of a greater, you know, one

cog in a greater machine and to, to
really think at a more strategic level

and to operate at a higher level.

That's a big part of what compelled
me to talk to you as well as the,

this idea of what you're niching into.

So maybe you can give us a quick
background on maybe where you were,

say a year ago, you know, just a

snapshot of that and what, where you
are in that sort of transitionary

path towards more strategic work.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah, well, I'm, I'm really
stoked to be talking to you, Kevin.

you you've been instrumental.

Your advice has been huge and just.

Changing how I am
approaching my, my business.

I've been, independently employed,
for six going almost seven years now.

I went, I left my job, my last job when
I was right, right before my fourth

child was born, born in the home and more
flexible, we were starting homeschooling

and such, And so I was just freelancing.

I had kind of come from just a generalist
background and communications with

nonprofits and kind of did some of
that, that tapered off after a while,

and then really sort of found a
niche in, Email marketing, it, which,

which was really a result of just
what was working for me on Upwork.

I, I had, you know, I was doing, You
know, web development, WordPress kind of

stuff, but, but email really is what set
me apart in Upwork and I grew my Upwork

profile, that, that really took off well,
you know, at this point now I'm, I'm over

six figures just in Upwork, so it was a,
it was a legitimately, you know, fed my

family from it, but, the kinds of clients
I was working with, there, there've been

good clients that I've stuck with, but.

Others that were just like, what,
like sort of like almost a shame

to like, tell my children who
I'm writing email emails for.

know, it's just become kind of a joke,
but you know, it's, it's what fed them.

So I guess I can't bite that hint.

so I was doing that work
was kind of slowing down.

I didn't have like a full roster.

I didn't really know every month.

Like what I would be doing and I was
having, it was stressing me out just not

really being able to plan my week and,
it was disruptive when, when I would get,

you know, a job come in, it was like,
kind of just shuffled everything in my

family and my, my, my plans for the week.

so that's kind of where I was a year ago.

I was, I was, I was.

Grossing, maybe between 60 and 70, 000
a year, just doing that kind of stuff.

I had a few regular retainers, doing
newsletters and things like that,

which have been good and I continue
to do, but I was getting more sort

of dissatisfied with, email and I
was having trouble scaling that.

so like I thought I would launch
a service that was kind of more of

a, even more focused around email.

just like just doing newsletters.

and I, I've, I've been with a couple
of different coaches, Kevin, and

before I came to your community.

and it's funny, they've really
mapped onto, I think, like

just stages of, of development.

The first one I tried was like very
infantile and very prescriptive in

terms of like, you got to do, you
got, got to get into like local

Google ads and, and manage managing
companies, you know, Google profile.

So like his advice was to like
change my business entirely.

and that just wasn't really a
fit or what I was going to do.

The next coach I had was awesome actually.

And, but he was really big on this,
kind of mass market, figure out

your, your service and your offer
and just get it out there and, and.

So he was really big on optimizing
the offer and things like that.

and it being very, kind of a
small discreet portion of a

company's overall marketing budget.

so that, so that was focusing, I
was leaning more into focusing on.

Email newsletters and just having
a, you know, a full end to end

process to do that as a service.

and I just wasn't having
much luck with that.

and in your community, Kevin, I think
I was doing some spitballing with you

or some other people in the community.

Even, I think it was you who
said, like, it is kind of hard to,

be just a portion of a marketing team.

if, if they're hiring a consultant,
it's much easier, just an easier

mental model to just think about
Jordan is our marketing guy and he's

our point or our one point of contact.

And we don't need to worry too
much about like managing all

these, all these freelancers
that make up our marketing team.

and, and that resonated much more with
me in terms of where I wanted to go.

you know, be, to be more of a leader
and, and be kind of higher up in the.

just the thought process of how companies
can market and not just be the guy

who takes the orders and does it.

so that's, that's really, that
was really compelling to me in it.

So.

I started kind of looking for
opportunities to just present

myself as the marketing guy.

and, that's, that's where I've,
I've, I've started seeing, some, some

major changes in my, in my business.

including, sort of coming into a niche
that I, I'm like super excited about,

Kevin C. Whelan:

so let's, so there's, first of
all, lots to unpack in that intro.

Thanks for that background.

And it's been interesting
to hear the story.

And I think we all go through some
kind of version of that story.

We, we do one particular service.

Maybe we start to add on a couple more.

Then we started to feel like, you
know, we're not really solving the

business's problem of say growth, which
is what they're really hiring you for.

And then you sort of feel frustrated
because you're, and this is how

I got started in advising too.

I was doing someone's website.

And maybe some ads or SEO or something,
but I could, I was witnessing them making

all kinds of other mistakes in other,
in all the other channels, hiring the

wrong people, turning over the, you
know, just doing things ineffectively.

And that's when I started getting the
wheels turning and saying, what if I.

What if I started, what if I just sort
of was your de facto marketing manager

for a while until you're ready to hire
someone and build you this team, because

I have all these great people that would
be great fit for what you're doing and

help be the orchestra, you know, the,
the, the mastermind behind your marketing.

And that's how I got into it.

So it sounds like you're sort of
following a similar direction.

You also landed on a bit of a niche here.

So I'd love to hear about, you
know, how, who is your target

market shaping up to be today and,
and how did it end up being them?

Where did that come from?

Jordan Mogck: Coming into a niche has been
something I've really been wanting to do.

and sort of just struggling with
the client roster I had and, and the

way that I, the channels I had for
getting clients was through Upwork.

And so it was kind of
like what's available.

but, I, I live on a small home instead,
with some livestock and, and, My

wife is a health coach and we're kind
of just very much in kind of this

functional health world real food kind
of kind of Culture and so I thought

you know, my wife's a health coach.

I know health coaches.

I can talk to health coaches I can help
health coaches So kind of went into sort

of that that health world looking to help
people and I had a whole bunch of just

kind of free advising calls for health
coaches, and learned a ton and gave some

good advice, quickly learned that beginner
health coaches don't really have a budget.

and so as I started exploring
kind of the food side of it, which

is kind of what I'm more into.

There's a website called real,
or it's called goodfoodjobs.

com.

And I had looked there on occasion
and you can toggle it to look for

remote part time job openings and,
and I saw one for a remote, growth

marketing manager and thought, okay,
that's, that's within my wheelhouse.

learn that it was, it's, it was.

A job for an Amish farm in kind
of an Amish group of farms.

and Yeah, had a conversation and, and,
and got that role and just, you know,

set it up as a client relationship.

And it turns out, you know, I
mean, Amish aren't generally

posting, job posts on, on websites.

so who they actually had someone
else who was helping them,

who was kind of, definitely a
golden goose within that niche.

Who has been awesome.

So she, she facilitated this, this
relationship, was helping this

farm find someone for this role.

And, so ultimately I got into
that role and then, and she's

sent me two more since then.

and so she, she's just been awesome.

Super knowledgeable.

Super well connected

Kevin C. Whelan:

just to use that term real quick.

Sorry.

When you say golden goose, we have a
strategy called the golden goose strategy,

which is instead of looking for your
end customer, the golden eggs, look for

the golden goose, look for the people
who have an audience or access to that

target market, build relationships, get
in front of them, and then they can help

you find slash produce the golden eggs.

So just to use, just to understand
where that terminology comes from.

And so that's working for you, Jordan.

So you've, you've now had a few
other referrals and they started

just to sidetrack you there.

But yeah, that's so that's
that's a great strategy.

And so tell me more about that.

How's that going?

Jordan Mogck: It's I mean, it's going
great Yeah, and and to be clear, I I

didn't really seek out the golden goose.

I just kind of lucked out
to cross paths with her.

Working with Amish have,

has been so fun.

I just, I have, I, you know, I, I'm
kind of their, I mean, I am their,

their marketing guy, but I'm also just
kind of their guy with a computer.

And so we talk on the phone a lot.

I'm, you know, most days, there's a whole
bunch of farmers that I get to talk to.

And every time I hang up, I just, I go to
my wife, like, I just, I love these guys.

It's just it's such a good fit.

And it, you know, it's, it's taken
me almost seven years, I guess,

to feel like that in my business.

but, you know, I've had
clients that I adore.

but I, I haven't had really that
sweet spot of, of, clients that I

really relate with and, and adore,
but, and also a business model that.

That I want to be marketing.

Yeah, that's huge.

I mean, part of it, I think when we're
picking a niche is, is an identity factor.

So like when I was getting into the
coworking world, you know, I thought to

myself as a consultant, I thought, do
I want to be the coworking guy and does

it really match with my identity or not?

And there were these kinds of
questions that I liked the industry

and love it and all that stuff.

But was that what I wanted to be
sort of known for because it wasn't,

it didn't neatly fit my identity.

I wasn't like, you know,
enthralled with coworking spaces.

I mostly worked from home,
you know, that kind of thing.

and where you're kind of in
an adjacent world, you know,

you have a homestead, right?

And so that's not the same as being
Amish, but it's, it's sort of, it's in

an, it's kind of an adjacency in a way.

Does, does that resonate?

Like, does it feel like there's an
identity factor that lines up, even if

it's around values or Some other things
are just like living in the country,

you know, I, have deep appreciation for
their world, you know, raising livestock,

the way that they're raising livestock,

Part of the arrangement is that
I, you know, I have in person

visits a handful of times a year.

And right, right away, you know, my
first question is like, what can I bring?

You know, one kid, one of
my, one of my kids, you know,

every time I have five kids.

And so, you know, I could cycle through
them and, and it'd be a, you know,

very special, you know, road trip.

And then also kind of this almost
cross cultural experience of staying

with some Amish families overnight
and eating with them and their family.

And, and to them, that's like, Well, of
course, like that's, that's just, that's

how we do things, you know, and, so yeah.

And then, you know, just sharing, you
know, the, the faith element as well.

I'm very like Anabaptist sympathetic and,
love with kind of love what they're doing.

So there's a lot to learn from the Amish.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Yeah.

Jordan Mogck: I'm learning a ton
just as I work with them too.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Yeah.

Wow.

What a great, what a great alignment.

I feel like that's what most people
are lacking and they struggle.

It either feels like, and you know,
maybe this isn't the right terminology,

but it either feels like you have to
be, have run a missionary business,

meaning you have to just sort of love it.

And regardless of making money, you're
kind of in it for the love and the

passion, or you're sort of a mercenary.

Where you're kind of like, look, I, I
don't, you know, I don't even want to tell

my kids what I'm writing emails about.

you know, but I'll do it because
the money is good and it feeds

the family and whatever, right?

Obviously that's an overstatement.

but you've managed to find both.

You've managed to find a profitable
situation in an area that aligns with

your identity, which is so hard to do.

And that's one of the reasons I
love mentoring marketers because

while it's not as profitable as
my consulting business, it's, Very

enjoyable and gives me a lot of energy.

And I just get to, there's an
identity factor and alignment there.

So it's great that
you've stumbled into it.

It sounds like it was kind of by
accident and yet here you are.

Right.

And I think it's really important to
kind of pay attention to what are these

signals of, you know, if I find some
work, do I love working with this kind

of person and maybe follow that thread
to get into that form of a niche versus

trying to arbitrarily pick something,
which is much harder, but it's great

that you've kind of lucked into.

Both probably on PR.

I never want to say it's pure luck.

Cause you, you had instincts, you
had a thing, and then you led,

led to a conversation, there's an
obvious match personality wise,

that led you to meet this person who
can introduce you to more people.

Well, let's talk more about that.

So how, so now that you, so you've
got your first client, right?

And so now are you basically their
marketing manager on a fractional basis?

Is that how that's working?

And then how did it
lead to more after that?

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

So, Well, this is the other cool thing
is, is it's, it's kind of a fractional

thing, but it's also, performance based.

So I have kind of a base,

you know, monthly fee.

But then it's, it's a 3 percent of all
revenue that we generate in the month.

So I feel like that, that's my first
time with that sort of arrangement.

And that's been really energizing
because, we all benefit from it.

is that all

Kevin C. Whelan:

revenues or attributable revenues?

Jordan Mogck: It's all revenue.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Okay.

So let's talk a little bit
about this one first business.

What are they selling and to whom?

Jordan Mogck: so they, yeah, it's,
it's milk, meat, eggs and all

Kevin C. Whelan:

local, like, or are they doing
e commerce or, I mean, you can't

really ship milk across the country.

I

Jordan Mogck: mean, you can, it's, it's
expensive, and, but yeah, so shipping

is expensive, but it is all e commerce.

That's all it is.

So, so it's all attributed through
the website that I'm managing.

Yeah, so that's how that works.

So it's, it's all, it's all revenue and
that that's kind of how this particular

farm has structured their compensation
for the whole team, including the farmers,

which they're great mindset
because, you know, they just,

they lack, they don't have ego or
they actively fight against egos.

Kevin C. Whelan:

That's so cool.

I love that.

And it creates an owner mentality, right?

If everyone's kind of chipping in,
maybe there's, you know, a base

thing to make sure your needs are
covered and then everyone kind of

is compensated for the greater pie.

What an amazing way to do business.

And so you're doing e commerce.

Did they have any commerce to begin with?

I suppose they had something if they
were looking for a part time person.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

yeah, they had, they were on this
really antiquated, piece of software

that wasn't working very well.

there, at least there was no good way to
measure, how things were working and no

good way to like follow up with customers.

So that, that was one of the early
projects was to move them to kind of,

there's a, there's kind of a Shopify
version for farms who are shipping.

Perishable goods, which is kind of a
niche software need, called grace cart.

It's really, it's great.

Kevin C. Whelan:

By the way, not to interrupt, but
that is a perfect alternative example

of a golden goose for whom you
could potentially reach out and say,

Hey, I specialize in this niche.

Can I do a training for your
customers and do live webinars?

I've done that.

And that works really, really well.

Jordan Mogck: Find the
software that serves the types.

Yeah, exactly.

Kevin C. Whelan:

It works extraordinarily
well, especially in my niche.

I've done those for all the
different coworking softwares.

And every time I do one, at least
one person kind of follows up after

and inquires about my services.

So yeah.

And now the Amish may not be
the first to join a webinar.

So factor that in, but they're
communicating with them somehow.

So something to keep in mind, even
like a teleconference, you never know.

Jordan Mogck: Oh yeah.

Kevin C. Whelan:

So, okay.

So you have this and you
help them transition.

So now you're doing the marketing
and are you executing the marketing

or are you mostly managing it?

Jordan Mogck: I am executing.

yeah, so it's, it's still a lot of,
writing emails and doing social media

and so, but, but I've moved from kind of
taking orders to, to just, I mean, right,

right off the bat, they're like, they told
me, we know, we know how to raise really

good food and we love to do that and
we're going to raise a whole bunch of it.

We have no idea what we're doing
when it comes to selling it.

so they're like, we just
want you to do that.

And.

Like we, you can ask us questions,
but, for the most part, we

want you just to run with it.

So that's also really kind of fun
to have a ton of latitude and trust.

we do talk, you know, at least once a
week to sync up on, you know, what, what's

going on on the farm, kind of seasonal
kind of things, you know, what's the

inventory, what should we, you know, put
on, on sale, but yeah, it's super fun.

Kevin C. Whelan:

That sounds like such an
exciting niche to work in.

And I guess I'm just, my head is spinning
with all the ways you could market them.

And we should do a sidebar
conversation sometime, but yeah,

that's, it sounds so it sounds like
a great, a great area to work in.

And so you're doing that.

So you're managing it.

So you're very much a fractional
manager, which by the way, if assuming

you're compensated well enough, having
at least one anchor client in that

way is a great starting point where,
especially if you're, if it's worthwhile

financially for you, and it doesn't
take up all your time, ideally no

more than say 20 percent of your time.

And then doing more leveraged offerings,
more advisory in nature, more, you

know, I'll hire the team and I'll
manage them to do certain things.

Maybe I'll stick, I'll still continue
to do communications and email,

but then I'll have an ads person
who's the right price that can do

all my client ads and whatever.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

I'm kind of reaching that point where, I'm
realizing it would be awesome to, I don't

really have a great network of people
that are independent in doing those.

Kind of ancillary services, but I'm at
that point where I'm thinking about that.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And when you find that, so the transition
there is, okay, so I'm going to manage it.

I'm going to do it for you effectively.

The middle ground isn't
going to manage it for you.

So I'm not going to do much
execution, any execution work.

I'm going to charge separately
for, if you want me to pencil in

that I'll do your emails fine, but
it's going to be an extra fee of X,

but generally I'm going to manage.

So we're going to need an ads person.

A writer, a designer, and a web
developer that I'll have access to

that I have in my network, and it
forces you to find these great people.

And essentially I will manage the ship.

I'll make sure we're sending
the right emails at the right

time to the right people.

I'll, I'll strategize
and help implement the.

The automations, whatever
else down the road.

And then eventually you don't manage
anymore, but in the Amish culture, you

might end up managing more unless you
got so big that you needed basically

another freelancer to be the manager.

Right.

But that would be, and then you kind
of advise them, but you're so far

away from needing that right now.

So, okay.

So you've got this one client that
you're doing it, then you, so who's

this golden goose person that,
and how did you come across them

Jordan Mogck: they were the one who was
kind of facilitating this relationship.

they had done the, the post
on, on good fruit jobs.

com job posts.

So yeah, I connected with her, had a few
calls with her and then with the farmer.

And then started work with this, this
farm brand and, and then she, she

does trainings at conferences where
a lot of grazers and farmers are at.

And, and, and she also works with, she,
she does growth marketing actually.

And, but for kind of, Like one of
the enormous Amish farms in the area.

so she, she's, she's like, I'm
just not taking more clients.

and so she, but she gets
this pretty steady flow.

So she has sent me two,
two more since that time.

That one, I'm doing a, just a
website for, and then the other

one, I'm, I'm doing something very
similar, kind of growing fractional,

Kevin C. Whelan:

right?

Awesome.

So you're getting, and also when I, what
I'm noticing as well as, you know, two out

of three of these are retainer clients.

And often, by the way, when I used
to do web design, That was the thing

that led into my other services.

So people would come looking
for new website and stick

around for the marketing.

So it's, it's great lead gen, if you can
position yourself to do websites as well.

But what you're doing is
you're building retainers.

Cause one of the things you said earlier
was, you know, it was like work came along

and it was sort of derail, whatever plans
you had that week or that, you know, the

next little while, but it was not great.

Consistency were probably not sleeping.

I mean, you with five kids, you're not
sleeping anyway, but you weren't sleeping

as, as well as he could be, knowing that
like your income was variable, right?

And that's, that's a scary proposition.

Do you feel a little bit more at ease
with two sort of anchor retainer clients?

And then this new additional
project, how does that differ

from where you were before?

Jordan Mogck: Yeah, well,
yeah, I mean, totally.

So I have a couple of
other retainer clients.

so now, now I, yeah, I feel like
I don't need to go out looking,

to stir up work every month.

I think that's somewhere I'd like to get
to, to, you know, keep my marketing going,

for my audience, but, But yeah, it is
such a relief to just have a roster that

I, you know, I know what I need to do.

I have a big white, you know, four
foot whiteboard next to my computer

and I, I can plan my week and it's
just, that's, that's super nice.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, that's, that's
what it's all about.

And because I think to me, like my clients
stay with me on average about two years.

So the, so to me, my marketing efforts,
I just try to keep a consistent flow.

I call it a program.

So just try to keep the
few irons in the fire.

I keep rotating or keep getting
information out there and keep marketing

myself, building relationships.

Now on the consulting side, a lot of,
a lot of it's moved to biz dev and

you're actually Discovering yourself
that, Hey, biz dev might be your primary

marketing strategy in the sense of these
relationships, maybe then speaking at

conferences, if they're, if that's where
they're attending and, and then meeting

some other people, you know, talking to
the owner of this e commerce platform and,

or whoever the marketer of that, of that
platform, trying to do a teleconference

series, maybe, which would be.

Super cool.

If you could do a series for them,
not sure they do it, not sure that's

a thing, but yeah, you're starting.

So you start to learn, you know,
eventually if you have these

retainer clients, you're not
turning them over that much.

So what ends up happening is you've
got your, I think no more than seven.

And so when clients come along right
now, I've got a mini waiting list

of three people that are like kind
of circling that I'm, you know,

trying to land in the new year.

As availability, I expect opens.

And so it's a good place to be
because it allows you to say like,

look, my price has started this.

So because you know, you have a little
bit of an oversubscribed factor, right?

You that, you know, even when you
don't need clients, you want to be

marketing yourself so that you have.

Yeah, you can maintain your price premium
because that's what's going to lie to

work with fewer clients and do great
work and not be stressed out, right?

And that's, that's the biggest factor is
that mental, the mental load, if you will.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah, that's

Kevin C. Whelan:

so, yeah.

So what's next for you now?

So you've got these three,
you've got these three clients,

two of them are on retainer.

Are they getting good results
that you feel like it's a

profitable situation for everyone?

I know it's probably early.

So,

Jordan Mogck: yeah, it is.

It is early.

One of the farms is brand new.

so a lot of that is just
helping him find traction.

the one that's a little more
established, that's, that's going great.

move, move them over to the new
platform and we can track everything

now, hitting a groove, finding those
levers that are working well for them.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Are you doing any local marketing?

Can you get people to stop by on their
way home and pick up some milk eggs?

What have you is, or?

Yes,

Jordan Mogck: one of the, so you can
order, you know, a box of meat and

milk, which is pretty expensive to ship.

so one, one of the things is
just, you know, for pickup.

So they'll, they'll, drop coolers
off at various locations where

the customers know to go and.

They'll grab their orders that way.

But that's, that's the cool, that's
a whole thing too, is, is the local

marketing and finding those metros.

and so I, I have been doing a lot of
like, and Google analytics is looking

for, you know, what metros are they
getting a lot of traffic from, and, you

know, is, is that A day's drive away.

so the Amish I've learned, you
know, they don't, they don't go

very far within a horse and buggy.

so they're actually
like huge users of Uber.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Oh, really?

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

And they, you know, hitch rides
with people who are, You know,

going to the same place, but

Kevin C. Whelan:

I love it.

And so, yeah, I mean, there's so many
ways if you ever want to talk about

some of these ideas, let me know.

Cause I can nerd out for days.

I can imagine like sending a whole like
freezer load to someone like stocking

up for the year of, you know, various
products and whatever you can't do

that, obviously with everything, but.

That's great.

So you've got, so you've
got these clients.

And so, you know, you're on the path,
you know, you're, you're still in.

So what my model is, you're going
from doing to managing to advising to

teaching is kind of the, the spectrum.

And most of us, what I originally
thought was, Hey, we're going to get

you free from doing and only advising.

What a lot of people end up doing is
they do a little bit of everything.

They do a little bit of done for
you, maybe a website here and there.

Maybe they run some ads.

They do a little bit of maybe
managed services, one or two anchor

clients to keep the bills paid.

That's your high profit,
high value stuff, ideally.

And then a little bit of advising if,
if, if, and when they break that ice.

And once they get into advising, that's
the default thing that they sell in

the future, that figured out how to get
business results without having to be

the one with the hands on the keyboard
by being a good producer, by helping them

allocate a budget and getting results.

Within that budget.

And so you're on that path and
you're headed in that direction.

And then eventually I think teaching
might be a great thing at some point,

like teaching people how to do these
websites, you know, and how to, or

how to get clients or what have you.

maybe all teleconference, maybe you
send around, I guess you can't even

do tapes, or CDs or, I don't know, but

Jordan Mogck: would be, I mean, I think
that would be super popular actually.

It's over the phone.

I mean, we do, we, our weekly meeting
is, is on Google meet, but they

just, they just call into the phone.

So that wouldn't be that hard.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Can you imagine doing a paid
membership that is a weekly tune

in radio type thing on the phone?

Jordan Mogck: That would be super cool.

Kevin C. Whelan:

I think that would be so, so cool.

And I think, cause I think people want
to learn, but they don't, they may

not want to learn like, okay, what's
the functional parts of this, but

more like how do I approach marketing?

What's the tactic of, it's
almost like a Dan Kennedy letter.

And maybe you have a printed
equivalent of, you know, your.

Your, your webinar, whatever that
you, you mail to them, assuming,

I assume they can take mail.

You're right.

There's no, yeah.

I can imagine that being such a
cool, imagine that like someone

would pay a hundred bucks.

A lot of people would pay a
hundred bucks for a bit of that.

Anyways.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

Kevin C. Whelan:

But that would be an example.

Jordan Mogck: I was just
going to say, even email.

So they've received.

my emails as, faxes, so that they, they
might have a fax machine in their office,

not in the home, but in the office and
they, we'll get my emails as a fax.

Oh

Kevin C. Whelan:

my gosh.

This is so fun.

I'm so excited for you.

It would almost be, I can almost,
yeah, yeah, this is, this is like.

Yeah, this feels like a great
thing, but this would be an example,

by the way of, okay, so you've
gotten good at doing the work.

you've gotten good at managing.

You're kind of now maybe you have
some clients where you're like, look,

I can't manage it all for you, but
I can certainly, or you're kind of

doing, you're still in the doing phase,
but in more strategic level, right?

You're still freelancing and
essentially you're still doing

everything managing is next for you.

So I won't do all the things, but
I'll, I'll start to outsource various

parts, ads, this, that, and the other.

And then eventually I'll only advise and
then, but adding an element of teaching

at some point when you feel is right,
whether that's an email based thing,

or a fax based thing, could be straight
fax, give me your phone number, it

could be a teleconferencing, but that
would be an example of selling your

expertise with, you know, I'm sure you
have to maybe show up once, but even

then in theory, you could prerecord it
and just send it off via Google meet.

But.

We, you know, it's not the plan right
now, but so much potential for you.

But that's kind of an idea of how you
can focus on a niche, become extremely

good at it, such that the hands work
anyone can do once you have the playbooks

and the ways of doing things, and
then teach where, you know, advise on

what, you know, manage, you know, so
what's, what's next for you to think?

What, where do you, where
is there a bottleneck?

Are you at your time limit in
terms of how much you can handle?

Like, are you at your, yeah.

Where are you now?

What's next?

Jordan Mogck: I'd say I still have a
little, little bit of margin, that I

could, I could take on some more work.

But I think next is, is, I mean, I'm,
I'm really just focusing on mastering,

direct, you know, farm marketing.

so I'm going to explore direct mail,
and some get into some paid ads also.

but yeah, just, you know, and
even just education for them,

for their, their I'm helping them
with, with Pricing and fulfillment.

And then like the unboxing experience,
you know, it's, it's just kind

of a whole thing to, to research
and and, and fine tune with them.

so, but I think I can totally see a
path to mastery of this and to where,

you know, I could easily bring some
other people in on this and manage

from a higher, higher level, I guess.

But right now I'm just,
I'm having a blast.

I love the visits.

I get to bring my kids along
and it's just, it's so fun.

Kevin C. Whelan:

That sounds so amazing.

Isn't it great when you find an
issue, actually you're inherently

interested in, and then you can
spend your time just learning inches,

you know, like, okay, what does the
unboxing experience need to look like?

What materials should we
be using that's on brand?

Okay.

You know, what, what, you know,
like, how are we going to distribute

this thing across the country?

What's, what are some, what are
some other ways people are doing?

Maybe we need a fulfillment
house, one state away.

So we can then have a different
radius that fulfills frozen, say

meat product or what have you.

And then you develop all these,
like you sub specific expertise.

That's way different because
you know, there's a lot of

great marketers in the group and
they're extraordinarily talented.

Everyone is in their own unique way, but
then you throw them, even me into that

world and it's like, okay, we know the
broad strokes of what marketing should do.

Effectively.

I've got ideas that are coming, but,
but to know the wrinkles, to know

the nuances of that world from like
a buyer and a seller mindset and that

philosophy, like there's so much to know.

And then that's where you become, that's
where the hands work becomes irrelevant.

We're having you for a couple grand
to make, to babysit and make sure

and be a become super valuable
because you're like, look, I can't.

Do all, I can't pack every box for you.

I can't grow every, you know,
chicken or whatever for you.

But what I can do is I can do it.

I can operate at this level
and I can add a lot of value.

And that's the fun part.

And so you're going to spend
the next two or three years

figuring out those wrinkles.

And then over time, you're going
to find yourself saying like, look,

I'm at capacity, but I can help you
and it's going to look like this.

And I think you'll find it
a natural transformation.

And it's a very much a mindset
thing about, can I add value without

actually being the one to execute?

And it turns out you can, you
just want to facilitate that.

And has there been any other mindset
shifts that have occurred that you're

noticing that you believe, or is to be
true now that informs, like invalidates

what you're doing that maybe you
didn't even think about or know before?

Jordan Mogck: yeah, I actually, I'd
say like, I think a light bulb went on,

For me around the idea of, resonance.

This is something you've talked about,
or at least you, you exemplify it and

how you market, you, you don't need to
have a, like a massive following, you

don't, you don't need thousands and
thousands of people on your email list.

and, and you don't need to talk
the way everyone else talks.

but to, to, to.

Just, I mean, say, say what you want
to say and obviously like say it

well, but all you need is, is the
right people to like resonate with it.

Like, I feel like resonance
is, is the thing you aim for.

or I dunno, another way to put it might
be like, maybe you've said it this

way, like optimize for relationship.

and so, I mean, I'm doing this even for
my clients in their emails, but like,

When I write emails, it's like trying
to optimize for a reply or some way to

get to know the customer a little more.

you know, I've toyed with different
things when I was trying to like grow

this newsletter service or, you know, it
was just too hard to, it was hard for me.

I felt dissonance, trying to.

Appeal to whoever needs newsletters,

Kevin C. Whelan:

but

Jordan Mogck: to really hone in and,
and, and just kind of communicate

in a way that will resonate with
whoever resonates with and whoever

resonates with, I'd probably enjoy.

so that that's been a mindset shift that
as I've even like, I've talked to like

friends who have their own businesses and.

Who have hired their own, you
know, marketing consultants.

And like, they've showed me
the kinds of things they're

posting for them on social media.

And they're like, well, like I
run, like I remodel kitchens.

Why, like, why do I have to
have like a happy Halloween

greeting on my Facebook page?

You know, I was like, you don't

Kevin C. Whelan:

like, but

Jordan Mogck: what you need is like,
just keep showing your work and, the

people who are looking for good work
and Well, you know, resonate with

that doesn't really do anything.

That's kind of just an algorithm
game and that's not the game.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Yeah.

It's funny you mentioned all of that.

I mean, it's, I think part of why
you're successful and I think you're

going to be extremely successful in
this space is because there's a certain

authenticity, both in who you are that
comes across in this conversation, but

also with the target market and there's
sort of an alignment, I think we're

going back to that word identity wise.

Where, you know, the Amish, you
know, they wear straightforward

clothing, et cetera, et cetera.

Well, you know, but it allows
your marketing to be sort of plain

spoken and, and just natural.

Which is really imbibed, you know, imbibes
the, the, the culture that they are.

And so if you have that naturally and
you're not trying to force it, you're

not, it's not like you were jumping
into like the cosmetics world where

you may not have expertise trying to
really reverse engineer the psychology

of the buyer is like, here, you're just
plainly saying, we've got great eggs.

They were raised on this pasture.

Here's a photo of the chickens running
around this morning, you know, whatever.

Right.

Like that, that may be terrible, you
know, whatever, but it's, it's about,

you know, If you feel it and as a,
as a person, as a farmer yourself,

can you just imagine the difference?

And then to this point of like
not having a big audience, you

really don't like what, you know,
yesterday I posted on LinkedIn.

I think one person liked it immediately,
like within, within a few minutes and then

like an hour or something went by without
any engagement or whatever, which is fine.

And then someone reached out
from one of the coworking.

software companies asking if I
can contribute to their article.

And I know, and she didn't even like
the content, but I know it was the

content that, and then someone else
reached out to me, mind you, he wanted a

sponsorship in the, the coworking world.

And so just like this, this idea that
you need a bunch of people, if you

can only take say seven clients and
you are entrenched in their business.

And they work with you for two years.

Once you're there, it's
like, you don't need UMass.

What you do, what you want is that
specific niche so that you're, you're,

you cut through the noise just by
speaking plainly about something

subspecific, and I think that's what
most people lack and they, they, they

feel too scared to go into that realm
of subspecific where you're, you know,

you're talking about if, let's say you're
doing an email for the Amish community.

The language you're going to
use is so nuanced that it's just

going to ring right through.

But if they were to then read an
email from someone about email

marketing in general, first of
all, their eyes would glaze over.

They would like, they don't
like, this isn't their world.

There's no nuances, no context.

There's no sympathy or empathy
for where they're at, what

their, for their context is.

So it's amazing how positioning allows
you to have just clear communication and.

And more residents, I think you were
mentioning, and then it doesn't take

much, you know, my email list on my
coworking side was like 600 people or

something, and I have no problem winning
business with or without that list, but

they're all hyper focused and they read
all the emails and so on and so forth.

So.

Just interesting.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

Definitely.

Yep.

I'm, I'm, yeah, I'm super excited.

It's, it's, it's helpful to talk to
you and just even for you to articulate

kind of what this path kind of looks
like is from the perspective of having,

you know, seeing people go through it.

exciting and that the timeframe
two to three years, man.

Who knows?

But that, that's, that's exciting to me.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Well, there's no reason you won't be
a very well known, almost renowned

speaking on stage at these conferences.

If I don't know what the conference
market is like, I do know there's

a huge market for Amish goods.

Amish furniture is a huge,
a huge industry as well.

Relatively speaking, but there's no
reason why you can't, what I call dominate

the niche, not in a way that actually
dominates, but it contributes at a,

as an authority in that, in that area.

if you stick with it and you may find
eventually you're going to broaden to

farmers in general or organic farmers,
or, or like you said, direct, you know,

farm to home, direct, like I buy my, my
meat from, mind you, it's an organic.

aggregator of, of meats from local farms.

So I don't get it.

It's not quite direct, but I
prefer that because I know the

quality is going to be there.

And I think that market's only growing.

And so you may end up
expanding to that world.

And there's so much, like,
there's so much room here.

Right.

And so when you go, it's like going
into a niche is like Narnia, you go

through a small keyhole and the door
opens and suddenly the world is massive.

Yeah.

And the opportunities get bigger.

Whereas if you try to interface.

Largely, it's like trying to cut through
the Amazon with a, with a block of wood.

All right.

It's not going to work and, it's daunting.

So I love that you're on this path.

And I think the next mindset for you
would be once you've done a little

more of the hands work, super important
time to say, okay, I've done this.

Let's how do I, how do I teach it so
that it becomes templates that I have

documented trainings that are maybe audio
based and have all these things forces

you to put things into context and to
think about them and to organize them.

And then how do I then
start to sell my advice?

Right.

And my, my, the strategy and not,
not be responsible for doing the

implementation, but maybe, maybe you
manage it and babysit it for awhile.

And then eventually you phase
out of that and really just help

people at the information level.

Once you've figured out what all these
wrinkles are, how do you take that

to market and say, like, I can't do
it all for you, but I figured out a

lot of the details and here it is.

And whether that's a monthly tele seminar
or a fax letter, you know, and Or both,

or products or courses or what have you.

I think the world is your oyster.

And,

Jordan Mogck: yeah, well, thank you, man.

Yeah.

It's exciting.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Great.

Well, anything else you think is
worth people knowing who are on this

path, maybe on the earlier side,
they're, they're very much stuck kind

of executing for clients, maybe feels
like they're turning at work, but that

they don't always necessarily love any
kind of parting, guidance or firsthand

experience you would say to someone about.

transitioning to be more strategic,
which I think is the net.

A lot of people are trying to crack
when they're focused on say one channel,

but how do you become more strategic
or what business advice would you offer

based on what you've learned so far?

Jordan Mogck: yeah, I, I guess,
I mean, a couple of things

I'd say is to, to be patient.

I think it's, I think it's
worth it to be patient.

and I understand that like,
no work is, is bad work.

and, but on the other side of that,
what I found to be really helpful to, to

get more into the strategy seat is, and
what I, what I've learned from working

with the Amish, but also just, my other
clients too, is, is to, get face to

face with them, or like get on calls
and, and have suggestions, Of where,

you know, things could be improved.

mean, so, so much, I was just on a
call this morning with a client who's

not Amish, but, we we've done, we've
been working together for a couple

of months and there's a lot of back
and forth through Slack and email

and comments and Google docs and.

It's felt sort of arduous.

and we, we got on a call today and, and
it's just like the process just lit up.

And, and she invited me to, you
know, into deeper engagement.

Cause it's just, there's something,
there's something about showing up,

letting someone get to know you a little
bit, in your own voice, that I think just

helps, helps you move into the right seat,
helps them place you, you know, even.

And where are you an implementer
or are you thinking, do you, are

you, are you bigger than that?

Yeah.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Amazing.

Yeah.

And eventually you see yourself as a
peer when you, you're like, I couldn't

maybe do what you do as a farmer, but,
but when it comes to marketing, I'm here

and so you kind of see each other eye
to eye as opposed to what you mentioned

before about being an order taker.

And a lot of that's very different.

Like if you're on Upwork,
you're going to take orders.

That's the game, unless you switch
to the dynamic and be expensive

on Upwork and that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

But I love that, especially
the in real life stuff.

That's one of the reasons I go to the
conferences having, you know, young kids,

it's difficult to get away from home.

I fly and stay somewhere for two or
three nights and, and I just, but I

meet people, I meet my clients there.

I mean, and they introduced me to people.

And I think that in real life factor is
a big contributing reason as to why I'm

successful in consulting and the former
me five years ago would have been, I'm

going to stay at home behind my computer.

I'm going to write content
until my fingers bleed.

And now I realize that so
much, there's so much more to.

Business development and just growth
when you get out of your house and, or

at very least get on a video call like
we're on, but the real life thing is huge.

So that's a great mindset.

Anything else, any other parting
wisdoms would you, would you say?

Jordan Mogck: I don't think so.

I think I've used it all up.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Yeah, that's good.

Well, we don't want to get to the
bottom that the well is never empty.

And the more you give, the more you
realize there's even more in there.

So Jordan, thank you so much
for sharing your story with us.

And I think it's inspiring because I
know a lot of people who are a little

earlier, I've focused on previous.

I've been focusing more on people
who are in that transition from,

you know, getting into advisory.

And I think there's a really
a big spectrum of people doing

execution and some management and
some advising and some teaching.

And that's kind of what I want to be more
holistic about is the realization that

we all do a little bit of everything.

And that's a good thing.

so thank you for sharing your story.

Where can people go to a follow you
on maybe on social media and maybe

learn more about your business or,
or you, should they be curious?

Jordan Mogck: yeah, I, I guess
maybe, maybe Twitter or X,

J a mock J a M O G C K.

or just send me an email
at, jordanathappytoil.

com.

I'd love to hear anyone who has
thoughts or questions or ideas.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Love it.

Thank you so much.

And by the way, I love that domain
because I know that you've had that

before you got into the niche and now
it feels like it's super pressing.

It feels super relevant.

Does it not?

Jordan Mogck: I feel that too.

Yeah, totally.

Kevin C. Whelan:

That is so good.

So I assume whether you've changed
your website and your positioning or

not, have you done, have you changed
your positioning yet on the website?

Or is it still so new?

No,

Jordan Mogck: I haven't
since like 2016 or something.

Kevin C. Whelan:

So you need to start thinking about,
even though your target market may not

be browsing the web, so to speak, but
it might be about getting on the email

list, which gets transmitted to fax,
or even just add your fax number if you

want, or I would start getting that.

Getting that going, but congratulations.

I'm super excited for you.

And like, I'm giddy with the
possibilities that are ahead of you.

So, I, I feel like you feel that too.

So it's great that you found
that alignment and thanks

for showing your story.

It didn't really been
really great listening.

Jordan Mogck: Yeah.

Thanks man.

Kevin C. Whelan:

Okay.

So that was our interview
with Jordan Mogck.

I hope you found it as inspiring
as I did super interesting path.

And you know what?

We all make this transition in
different ways from the doing to the

managing, advising, and teaching.

And, uh, hopefully you've
gained something out of this.

And if you're looking to do.

Similar things.

If you're looking to become more
strategic as an independent marketing

professional, head on over to my
website, Kevin dot me on there.

You'll see links to a membership that
I have in a bunch of training and all

kinds of stuff, get on my mailing list.

And, uh, you can be notified
when I do new podcasts like

this, send new videos on YouTube.

I also write quite frequently,
short, succinct, uh, emails.

to my audience of independent marketers.

And so you can learn more about
that and everything else that I

have going on over at kevin.me.

And that's it for now.

I'll see you in the next episode.

As always, thank you so much.

And be sure to watch one of these
other videos and be sure to follow

the channel if you're not already.

See you in the next one.