How to Sell Advice

Kevin C Whelan: Hello, my
friends, and welcome to another

episode of How to Sell Advice.

The podcast, that's all about how
to package and sell your expertise,

not just your hands with advisory
work, being at the center of it.

And in this episode,
we've got Billy Broas.

Billy Broas is a marketer copywriter
educator, and he's worked with

some pretty fantastic creators
and educators in the past.

The likes of.

Tiago Forte, David Parell, Ali
Abdaal and many others that

are just, super successful in
their spaces, online educators.

And so he's got all this experience as
a copywriter, as a messaging expert,

and also now as an advisor and educator.

And so we kind of break down not only
his framework, but we talk about how he's

managed to build a business around that.

So he's got something called the five
light bulbs framework, and we talk

about what that is, how it works.

It's a messaging framework.

Uh, we talked with them, how we
leveraged that into courses, core

courses, books, advisory services.

And all kinds of other cool stuff.

We also talk about how he focuses on the
fundamentals of marketing and not just

the next kind of new thing we talk about.

How are you using this framework actually
allows you to understand your customer

better and therefore become a better
marketer and create better products.

We talked about how he gets new
clients through direct means as well

as through getting in front of other
audiences and teaching in front of

other audiences of his target market.

So we break down a lot of different
things about how his business works and

how it's based around his core framework.

So stay tuned for this.

One's very interesting.

It goes about an hour and I'll
see you on the other side.

Billy, welcome to the show.

So glad to have you with us today.

Billy Broas: Thanks for having me, Kevin.

Good to be back.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Yeah.

Billy actually was a guest, one of the
original guests in the Mindshare community

in, in terms of guest presenters.

And he, he, he taught his core methodology
that we're gonna get into today.

And, uh, maybe actually
we can start there.

Uh, Billy, why don't you tell us
about the, the core thing that you

do today, which is teaching your
proprietary framework, the five light

bulbs framework, what, what is it, and
then what are, let's start with this.

What is it and what are
the five light bulbs?

Billy Broas: Sure it's
a messaging framework.

You might call it a
communication framework.

Some people think about it as
a, a copywriting framework.

I prefer messaging framework.

I think it's the most straightforward
and best describes it.

And uh, it's essentially a
structure for your marketing.

It's a, this universal language
that I discovered and I turned it

into this framework and now a, a
methodology to, to help businesses

cuz that's, that's what I do.

I help businesses.

And so, um, it's very foundational.

It's definitely not based on tactics.

It's not dependent on any one platform
like Twitter or Instagram or anything.

It's uh, it's the 80 20 of your marketing.

So if you, if you're staring at that
blank page, which lot of us do I

like, I'm a copywriter and I still do
that, and you're trying to, to write

something that brings in business.

It's these five boxes that you can
check that are just very simple, but.

Powerful as well.

And if you just check those
five boxes, you know you'll

be in in pretty good shape.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, so
they're kind of like the core

ingredients you want to have.

You may not use all of them, but the, the
core ingredients you have, it's uh, uh,

to use either in your website copy, which
would be the most extensive, maybe have

all five of them, or things like ads where
you might talk about one or two of them.

Why don't you tell us what those
five light bulbs are and then we can

unpack that a little bit as well.

Billy Broas: Sure.

And, uh, it's a very visual framework,
so I definitely invite you to go to

the website, uh, p post.com/framework.

And um, I hired an
illustrator, phenomenal.

Illustrator, a guy named Matt who, who
really brought this whole thing to life.

And um, we have this whole crazy world.

We have a bear, we have an owl, but
I'll walk through them briefly here.

So light bulb one, and these
are categories of messaging.

Think about 'em that way.

Uh, light bulb one, this represents
your customers status quo.

So where they are now, we often call
this their unacceptable status quo.

Because you wanna target someone.

This is important.

You wanna target someone who
has existing demand or a market

where there's existing demand.

This is an old Eugene Schwartz
lesson that you can't create demand.

You can only channel it.

Uh, so that's like bulb one, and
it's the language of empathy.

It's messaging about the customer
and where they're now, and making

them realize that you understand
them and what they're going through.

Which then moves us to light
bulb two because they want

to move away from that area.

Obviously from that place
where they are that bad place.

And Light Bulb two represents
those other options they have.

Or if you look at the illustration,
we use Bridges, so the other bridges

that they can use to get away from
where they don't wanna be in two,

where they do wanna be and do you wanna
give voice to those other bridges?

And that's what Light Bulb two represents.

Then we have light bulb three and uh,
this one's really interesting and it, it.

Really helps in a crowded market.

It's a great differentiator, and
Lipo three represents your approach.

So it's not your product,
but it's your approach.

It's your methodology, it's
your philosophy, it's your

your way of doing things.

Then we have lipo four.

This is the easiest for people
to get because it's your offer.

So it's your product.

Yes.

But it's larger than that.

Your offer also includes your price
point, your guarantee, any bonuses.

So this tends to be pretty boiler plate.

People tend to know this information and,
and typically this is all that people talk

about in their marketing material, which
is why people like the five light bulbs.

They say It gives me other
things to talk about.

Light bulbs 1, 2, 3, and five.

Uh, which brings us to five,
which is the customer's new life.

So the other side of that bridge where the
sun is shining and the birds are chirping.

And again, you want to give
voice to that side of the bridge.

And a lot of people neglect that because
they assume my customer will just get it.

And uh, and you don't
wanna say that phrase.

So those are the five light bulbs.

Kevin C Whelan: Okay.

I love it.

So there's a lot to unpack there, and
I think what I've, what I like about

this is that copywriting is very, if you
don't have a framework and you don't,

and you haven't been trained, copywriting
feels like you're just throwing.

You have to be a good writer and
throw words at the wall and hopefully

convince someone like you're doing a
sales, you know, it's like a, you're.

It's like you're selling, but
with words, but, but it feels like

you have to sort of make it up.

And what I love about your approach is
that you say, well, you don't have to

make it up as long as you have these,
as long as you're talking about your

offer and, and, and your method and
what's going on in the customer's mind.

Uh, in all these different areas, it makes
it easier to kind of check the boxes, make

sure that I have the core ingredients.

And then I think part of your method is
that you can, you can basically order

them in the way that makes sense for you.

And some people lead with say,
a light bulb three, which is

about, I think the method versus
the better life, the light bulb.

Uh, one I believe could be missing
mixing these up, but like what I

love about is the ingredients are
there and then it becomes down to

you to figure out how to use them.

Uh, do you have any guidance
for anyone in terms of.

How to take these things and
put them into a certain order

to achieve a business result.

And we'll use a website as an
example cuz that's probably

the most heavyweight thing.

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Well, let's back up first.

So, yeah.

The reason why it works is because it's,
it's really a radical approach to putting

yourself in your customer's shoes.

You think about some of the other
marketing frameworks out there,

they're very, like, for internal use
only, they make sense to marketers.

I'm very big on the human experience and
really understanding someone's perspective

and then what this is that it takes, it
does that first, but then it maps it.

It's a layer on top of that.

It maps these, these different
categories, map to the human

experience of making a decision.

That's why you can use the
five light bulbs for yourself.

You know, you can think about a
decision that you're going through

and think about where am I now?

Where do I want to be?

What are my different light bulb twos,
my different bridges to get there?

And how do I decide which one to take?

And then once I decide which one
to take light bulb four, which is

the action step in this, in this
case, it's not buying a product.

It's, it's you taking
this action on your own.

It's okay, well here's
my plan to get there.

I'm gonna do this, this, and this
every day for the next six months,

and that's gonna get me there.

So I wanted to, to state that
first because it's easy to jump

into, okay, what order do they
go when the lip bulb was going?

But that's way downstream of first
understanding the, the bigger

picture here of what's going on.

Kevin C Whelan: Got it.

Got it.

Okay.

So, uh, you have this framework.

You teach entrepreneurs how to
apply it to their own business.

You've, and you also then teach marketers
how to use it in their practice so that

they can become more effective at it.

So you kinda have a two-sided market,
uh, or two kind of component market.

Is that.

Accurate still?

Or are you sort of focusing more
on one group over the other?

Billy Broas: Now I do.

Yeah.

And I mean this is an important point too,
cuz now we're gonna talk about my business

model, which is not what I normally talk
about and I'm excited to talk about it.

Cause I'm normally just teaching
the light bulbs and, and messaging.

Um, but I'm very much at a transition
point in my career, which started two

years ago when I first came up with
this crazy idea about these light bulbs.

So I'm very much transitioning from.

Being a consultant, a coach, a service
provider, um, to having a more, to

having a more, I guess would say more
of like a real business where I have

products, um, which was only, and I, we
could talk about this more too, which

was, is really only made possible cuz
it's tough in a business like ours

where you're selling advice, right?

Or selling the invisible
it's name of a great book.

Kevin C Whelan: Great book.

Yeah.

I love that book.

Billy Broas: Because we don't really
have a physical product, right?

Like, I have this cup right here.

This is, this is easy to sell, right?

I can, I can, I can have a store
full of these and, and know my

costs going into it, how many I sell
per day, and the revenue and the

margins and taxes and all that stuff.

When you're selling advice
though, it's tricky.

Um, so IP to me has been
the answer, and that's what.

Five light bulbs is it's
intellectual property.

So now I'm, I'm productizing,
I finally productize my

knowledge and then I can follow.

Then it, it's, at least
for me, it's simpler.

I can think about now my
product is more like this cup.

And you know, that metaphor's
gonna break down soon, but I

can have all these different
levels of implementation with it.

Like, yeah, I can have the one-on-one,
which I've been doing, and, um, helping

people with the five light bulbs, but
also now, uh, a self-paced course.

Uh, I'm working on a book now, but
it's not that book, but eventually

it'll be the five Light Bulbs book.

So yeah, more of a well-rounded business,
but I'm, I'm very much in it right now.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Okay.

This is great.

So it sort of maps to my general
paradigm that we go from doing.

So you were copywriting for a long time.

And you developing those skills to
slowly moving into either managing either

other people or managing your client's
project to advising and then to teaching

as sort of the tail end and to selling
those as products would be the most

leveraged form as you kind of go along
your journey of selling your expertise.

Let's break down your business
model a bit, cuz I know you have,

you have a, uh, you have a copy
critique and maybe we'll start there.

So, um, you what, I guess maybe walk me
up your, your path a little bit from.

Copy critique, and then
you've got a V I P day.

What else do you have?

Or maybe explain those two first
and then we'll talk about the other

Billy Broas: Well, I'll, I'll,
I'll, I'll present it this way.

I think this would be the
most useful for your listener.

So, and I have to give a little bit of
backstory here, which apologies if you've

heard me say this before, but I, I used
to have a completely different career.

So I was working at, for a
small engineering company,

specializing in clean energy.

I.

And, uh, and that was awesome
and I was really into that.

Uh, but it was a small company.

I had the entrepreneurial
itch, wanted to get out.

And so I started this,
this was 2008 or so.

The four hour work week was out.

The internet was taking off
Twitter, I just launched.

So I started a website about, uh, a
passion I had, which was beer brewing.

I was really into crap
beer, making my own beer.

So that's how I got into
this, this marketing stuff.

I didn't have any marketing
experience before this.

Uh, I got an mba, but they don't
teach this kind of marketing, right?

They're assuming that you're like, uh,
you know, c m o at Walmart or something,

and the sales are already me and
you're just kind of allocating budgets.

So, and then, so then eventually
with the beer site, I got really into

the, the marketing side of things and
said, man, this is, this is exciting.

And I started working with all these
other businesses, even bigger than

my beer website, much bigger, but I
could still point out things marketing

wise, especially copywriting wise,
that they could do differently.

So eventually my interest, and there
were other factors too, happening

with the beer website, but that faded,
this other side of things took off,

and that's when I got into being, I
don't know what you would, you would

call me, but I was doing marketing.

Consulting coaching, I would
partner, uh, with businesses, with,

uh, mainly online course creators,
revenue share types of deals.

So I have done every, every type of
thing you can sell in this industry.

I think I've sold it.

Kevin C Whelan: So where are you?

So I want to come back to partnering
and revshare because we did a

training on this just uh, two
days ago in our community about.

Equity, equity, compensation and
partnerships and that kind of thing,

but, we'll, we'll come back to that one.

But going back to what you're
doing today, so what's your

core model looking like now?

How do you, what are
you currently selling?

Billy Broas: So I would split it into
three tiers where I have my, my one-on-one

work, which I've always been doing.

And then a level down from
that, we have cohorts.

So group programs a more leveraged
version of me working one-on-one,

but I'm still very much involved.

Uh, and it's been primarily that,
I mean, honestly, the whole time

until literally right now, cuz we're
just now launching the on demand

version of the five light bulbs.

So this will be the first time.

I'm offering something in this space.

Right.

I haven't, I, I did this with my beer
site, you know, I had these beer brewing

courses where I wasn't, some of those
I actually did as cohorts, but, um, but

most of those were just on demand courses.

Yeah, those, those were fun.

Especially the beer tasting one.

That was a fun

Kevin C Whelan: Uh, nice.

Before, before cohorts were popular,
you were selling beer cohort courses.

Billy Broas: Yeah.

This was 2013.

We, I didn't call it a cohort.

I was just like, Hey, if we're gonna
have a beer tasting course, If you don't

drink beer by yourself, you do it live.

So we're gonna hop on Webinar jam and
we're gonna drink this beer together and

I'm gonna walk them through how to do it.

Um, so that was, that was a lot of fun.

But, uh, I forget what I was saying now.

Yeah.

Oh, and, and we're just now
launching the, the on demand

course for the five light bulbs.

So tho those are the, the three tiers.

Kevin C Whelan: Three sort of buckets.

Now, it looks like you don't
talk a lot about your one-to-one,

but I know you offer it.

Is it just the, is it just the,
uh, the critique and the v i p

day, or are you also writing?

Copy or, or you said you were previously
advising and consulting on a more,

you know, protracted longer basis.

Billy Broas: Yeah,

Kevin C Whelan: are the
one-to-one services like?

Billy Broas: of things, you know,
and I, I go by my gut for a lot

of this about what feels right.

What's happening in the marketplace?

Kind of where I'm headed, you
know, like if I'm thinking two

steps ahead, what I wanna be doing.

I mean, historically it's
been a combination of advi,

I would say three categories.

So advising, so meeting usually on
a weekly basis, just doing a call,

looking at what they have going on.

Uh, there's often a lot
of coaching in there too.

Getting them clear on their goals.

Because you have to know that, right?

In order to recommend the right solution,
what do you, what do you really want?

Do you wanna build a big company?

Do you wanna more of a lifestyle business?

Because there's different paths
for each of those, and I need to

know where we're taking this thing.

Um, so that's a lot of it.

Um, and then, and like I leveled down from
that, I would say strategy and planning.

A lot of this has been made easier on me
too, in, this is a good, this is a good

lesson in the sense that, or by the fact
that I've been in the same industry.

So it's largely.

Coaches and course creators.

So we're, it's the same types of
business models and the same types

of ways to sell these products.

So you pretty much have, in my
world, launches and funnels.

And so I can advise, we can do a
project, then we can say, okay, I'm

gonna advise you on this launch.

And that's a very set
duration set kind of a thing.

That's probably more of a consulting
project, cuz people who haven't

done that before, they might have
a big audience, but they haven't

done an online course launch before.

They need to know like,
what webpages do I need?

What technology do I need?

How do I follow up with the customers?

And so that lends itself well to
a project sort of arrangement.

Kevin C Whelan: Got it.

Okay.

So it sounds as though, and I think.

Think you don't have any of this
stuff listed on your website.

You, you very, you don't
really actively promote your

one-to-one as far as I can tell.

Like there's

Billy Broas: The website
has never played no.

And that that's, that's a new website.

Never.

The website is never the website,
and pretty much all the stuff that

I do for clients has never been a
big role until now in my business.

Kevin C Whelan: interesting, and
then you bring basically whatever

tool is required to get the job
done for that particular client.

So if they're like showing you something
and you're like, I think this is a funnel.

Scenario and you're looking for advice.

I can help you look at this whole, I can
map this stuff all the way through your

funnel and work with you for a project or
an extended period of time kind of thing.

Do you just sort of, is
every project custom,

Billy Broas: It depends.

It depends on what they need.

It historically has been, yes.

Which has been a challenge a as you know,
that's a challenge doing custom stuff

and estimating your hours and all that.

Again, it's made easier by
the fact that these tend to

be the same kinds of projects.

So I know

Kevin C Whelan: Online educators and

Billy Broas: goes into 'em.

Yeah, so some, some, sometimes
it'll be, Hey, I'll help you plan

your launch, and do you need copy?

No, we have a copywriter.

Okay.

Well then we'll just do the planning.

Or no, I don't have a copywriter.

I need all the copy written too.

It's like, okay, well that's a big
thing we're gonna add on to this then.

Uh, yeah, or, or something as
specific as if it's a bigger company.

Hey, we have this big team involved.

We need someone to come up with
some good Facebook ad creative.

I've done that before and I'm
just doing the Facebook ad

creative for this big launch.

Kevin C Whelan: And do.

And do you underpin that with like
an upfront strategy process where you

kind of figure out all their messaging
ingredients and then take that and

then run it with the Facebook thing?

Or do you just essentially

Billy Broas: I mean idea
in a perfect world, right?

We do all the customer research,
we do strategy, we interview

cust, but sometimes it's like.

Hey, we have this big opportunity,
this affiliate is going to promote

us, but only if we start this thing
next week say, just do your best.

Just dive right in with what you got.

You gotta, so you gotta be very
pragmatic too in this stuff cuz

Yeah, it's, it's the real world.

It, it's messy and you gotta,
you gotta break things.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, and I, what
I like about your model is that

you're not really constrained to one
specific way of solving a problem.

I think marketing consultants,
they either see themselves as

advisors or fractional CMOs.

Or freelancers.

But what I like about what you're bringing
is for first of all, a framework to

organize your thinking, which I love.

Uh, and also then you can say, well,
it looks like you need some advice,

or it looks like you need some
actual handwriting, some copy here.

Maybe I'll do, I'll do some or
all of it, or I'll introduce you.

I think in the past you've
introduced copywriters who then

worked under your advisement with
the client or who has taken your

methodology and has run with it.

So what I like about it is you're
focused on the outcome the client's

looking for, and you're packaging.

The delivery of the mechanism
that you deliver your services in

according to the needs of the client.

Not some preconceived notion
that I'm a copywriter, a

strategist, or what have you.

Is that accurate to say?

Billy Broas: It is.

Yeah, and, and I'll just point
out once again that it's now much

easier that I have the framework.

For example, in the past, if I were
doing a v I P day, it would be,

okay, we have this shell, right?

And uh, this shell product, what
are we gonna do with these hours?

And it, and, and that was fine.

And it was like, okay, what do
you, what do you need the most?

And it might be working on a
launch, it might be working

on a funnel customer research.

Now that shifted where it's, Hey
Billy, I want a v i p day to do my

messaging map for the five light bulbs.

Kevin C Whelan: Right.

So it, that's great too because
it inherently constrains the

relationship in a positive way.

So it focus, it focuses it.

So it's not like, okay, Billy, can
you also tell me like, you know,

what's wrong with my website code?

Or where, wherever my targeting is wrong
on Facebook at like, you're, you don't.

It allows you to create a scope and
therefore a price and therefore, you

know, anchoring on value to the your
framework and your expertise, and it

simplifies that for you and for them.

Billy Broas: it's better
for both of us because.

Otherwise, you're doing all
the, you know how it is.

You have to do something over and over
and over again to achieve mastery.

You have to do it a lot of
times to get really good at it.

I'm still, every time I do
this, I'm refining this process.

I mean, you get diminishing returns,
you get the biggest gains the first

few times, you know the first few reps.

But if you're jumping from a launch to a
funnel to customer research, you're not

getting many reps in with each of those.

So they're not getting very
good, like the products are just

not as good as they could be.

So that's been one of the good things
about this is that by being so specific,

yeah, there's a lot of benefits to me.

I can productize things, I can
predict revenue and profit better.

I can even train other people on how
to deliver this productize service.

But they're also getting a
very, the, the client is getting

a very dialed in product.

Kevin C Whelan: Well, also, you're
horizontally quite narrow, right?

Being copier, you, you know, you
have an opinion on design, but

that's not part of your framework.

You have an opinion on.

Um, you know, something like my work,
for example, if it, if it, if it

helps you get more customers and it's
in the marketing arena, I'm gonna,

I'm gonna at least advise you on it.

But usually my method is, hey, we need
to bring in a specialist for this.

We need to get someone
who's good enough for this.

And I'm helping them basically allocate
resources and create, bring in the

right people to do execution that's in
their wheelhouse and their specialty.

So what I like about you though
is that you're very much able

to say, here's where I'm.

I specialize horizontally,
and then there's a vertical.

Usually you're with online course
creators, although I'm sure you've worked

with many industries, but that allows you
to really just get really good at applying

that same methodology over and over again,

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Yeah.

And I, and I've also seen big
benefits from, and this is

just how I am, I'm very much a
foundational principles type of guy.

Like when it, you know, I got into
online marketing, I have, and I

have a lot of friends, man, where
a new tool comes out and uh, and

they're just all over it, right?

And they're hitting me up and
they're like, yeah, check.

Have you checked out this new
email marketing tool or this one?

It brings them joy.

It brings me a lot of stress.

I'm like, Hey, can I just
write a simple email?

Like I don't care about all these tools.

It's, it, it feels very
overwhelming for me.

Um, so I've always retreated
back to the basics.

Back to the basics.

Like, I would see these funnels
that people would bill cuz they

copied, you know, they, they
read about this funnel somewhere.

This, this funnel is the key,
but then the copy's terrible.

The messaging is terrible.

I'm like, none of that stuff
matters unless you get this

foundational stuff correct.

Um, so it ha what I'm saying is it is
very specific to my business model.

I think it's a good idea
to specialize in something.

And it's really benefited me focusing on
these foundational principles, uh, and,

and specializing in that because that
then, then that can apply to everything.

It's, it's not gonna go anywhere.

I can show you how, cause we're focusing
on messaging, your foundational messaging.

So I can say, oh, well yeah, Facebook
ads, I'll show you how that fits in.

Or Instagram, I'll show you
how that fits in our seo.

So that's been one nice thing.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Okay.

So you've talked a little bit about
your one-to-one stuff, and uh, so I

know you have, you'll do a critique.

For example, you'll, you'll do a v i p
messaging day where you spend the day

in, in one or two parts, uh, helping
them map out all this messaging stuff.

Um, you have done successfully
several cohort courses and now

you're moving to self study courses.

Um, Why make that move
from cohort to self-study?

Are you finding the, that's where
the market's going or have you just,

is there another reason for it?

Billy Broas: Oh, the, the typical re.

I mean, I put a lot into the cohorts, and
I can only do that with so many people.

Kevin C Whelan: Got it.

Billy Broas: I mean, I, I really
am, I'm not just BSing here.

Like, I really think that this
can, this can change marketing.

This five light bulbs thing, it's a,
uh, it's a terrible industry in a way.

I mean, it's, it's tough to be in.

It has a terrible stigma.

Uh, no one enjoys it.

People, people distrust marketers.

They just wanna focus on their product.

Um, But we also can't avoid it.

We also need it too.

And so I can, I can run from it and say, I
don't wanna be in that icky area, but you

know, there, there's problems everywhere
and there's bad stigmas everywhere

and misperceptions and everything.

And, uh, I think the best way to
change something is from the inside

out, not from getting outside
of it and throwing rocks at it.

And so I really see this as
some, as a, as a force for good.

And it's such a, a universal language.

And it's, so, it's bottom up.

It's not top down like
so many things out there.

Like it really puts, it, it, it
empowers the reader or, or the,

the, the user or the student.

And it puts it on them to, like,
we ask you these questions, like,

what is the value that you provide?

And then we show you, and then
we show you how you can use that.

And we that into a creative message.

It's a very creative framework,
which is very exciting for me

and one of the reasons why I'm,
I'm so passionate about it.

Uh, so I really want everyone
speaking this, you know, whether you.

By one of our courses or not.

want everyone speaking this light bulb
language cuz it, it really helps with

marketing and who doesn't want that?

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, and, and what I
like about it as well is, okay, anyone

who creates any kind of a product, let's
say you're either an engineer or you

are a service provider, or it doesn't
matter what you do, our natural tendency

is to focus on the widget itself, right?

Like this, you know, and like all the
details of how much ram the computer

has, the thing, because that's as
practitioners, as product creators.

That's the thing that, like
we, we've, we've obsessed on.

We've spent our years learning
how to do our craft and therefore

we, we only wanna talk about it.

Whereas the client is thinking like,
I'm over here and this is the pain

I'm in and I want to get over there.

And that's the pain you're in
and you're talking about your

shoelaces and how great they are.

Um, and what I love about your framework
is that it, first of all, recognizes

okay, like, What is your situation?

What else have you tried?

Where are you trying to go?

What's the better life that you're in?

Um, and then, you know, so it's
much more three-dimensional than,

than just staring at your navel
and saying, here's how good I am.

And that's one of the reasons I love it.

It extracts by nature.

All these other pieces that are important,

Billy Broas: Yeah, and that, and
it also leads to a better product.

Like I believe, I can elaborate on
this as much as you want me to, but

I believe that it, I believe that it
will lead to more innovation and better

products too, the way that it's set up.

It has to it naturally.

If you follow the methodology, it
naturally leads to more innovation.

Kevin C Whelan: I love this idea because
you know, one of the first things I

read when I went to back to School
for Business was in marketing was

marketing is the four Ps of marketing
product, rice Place, promotion.

And I think marketers say, oh, your
product is no good, so I can't help you.

I can't market it.

But I really believe that the quality
of the product and how you innovate

is very much based on market feedback
and, and basically innovation happens

at the cutting edge of your product
and your marketing meeting the, the

human, the customer on the other end.

And I believe it is our job to
help help our clients shape the

product in a way that matches
what the market is looking for.

And by gathering that intel and un and
empathizing and speaking and to them, and.

Hearing from them.

And I think that's, I dunno if
that's where you're going with

that, but I really like that.

It like by by.

No, by thinking in terms of the
lens of the five light bulbs, you're

now able to make sure everything
is aligned with real humans on

the other end of the transaction.

Billy Broas: Exactly.

A lot of product creators think they
have a good product, but it's only good

if it's good in the eyes of the prospect
and what they value their, their light

bulb five, to use that word, they uh,
What they value might not be what the

product creator thinks they value.

So then it doesn't matter how good
your product is, if it's taking

them, if it's a bridge to the wrong
place, then it's not a good product.

So absolutely.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, so it, as much as
it is about messaging, it's also about.

It's also about the product is about
maybe even evolving the product

to better fit the market, right?

If you are selling boots with cleats
and you're trying to sell it to rugby

players, but they're not, that there's
a better product out there and you're

like, well, if we just put, made them
spike here and position them for, you

know, for them climbing mountains,
that we may have better luck because

we can see here that there's not a
sufficient product in the market or

that for some reason mountaineers
are resonating with this, uh, better.

So you can kind of guide the product.

And not just the messaging.

And I think that's part of the issue is
that marketers often try to put lipstick

on a pig or try to market something
that the market inherently doesn't want.

Like, you know, making it look really
good when it's not actually a good fit.

And I think it's kind of combining
the message with an actual product

that fits the right type of person.

Billy Broas: agreed.

And, and then the, the other part of
this too is finding, I'm a big believer

in finding a better way of doing things.

And, and this is really light
bulb three, your approach.

And this is what I meant by.

One of the things I meant by, I think
that I know that this approach will

lead to more innovation because part
of this file light bulb methodology

is I, I tell you, I teach this.

You need to make an argument
for your light bulb.

Three, you need to argue for your
approach and make a good rhetorical

argument and provide, uh, proof and,
and evidence and, and back it up

and explain why it's, why it works
better than everything else out there.

And, and so if you do that, and if you
make a good faith argument then, and

you have the proof to back it up, then
you and, and everyone, let's assume

everyone in this market does this.

All the companies do this
and they're all making ar.

You know, you have, you have a hundred
different people making arguments.

Well, they're gonna start
competing against each other to

find the best way of doing things.

The best light bulb three.

And that will lead to more
innovation and a better product.

Kevin C Whelan: Interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that kind of goes back as well to,
um, you know, your approach is maybe

your framework, but then how you deploy
that approach is how you've, especially

in a one-to-one way, Like your framework
underpins what you do, but then how you

deliver that is maybe through teaching
it, maybe through advising, maybe through

writing, maybe through, you know, a tear
down, what a critique or what have you.

And, uh, so I, you know, I just love
that, like not being too glued to my

identity as a copywriter, as a consultant,
as a teacher, and saying, and you

know, saying like, okay, what is this
methodology doing and is it working?

And if not, how do I dial it
in so it works even better?

And then deliver it in the way
that makes the most sense for the

right different kinds of customers.

So, yeah.

Billy Broas: Well, I think making that
step, that was an important step for

me, going from the guy who just gave
good marketing advice to now creating

something that has independent value.

Kevin C Whelan: Mm-hmm.

Billy Broas: That's that, that ip,
that systematizing that, uh, codifying.

And that's what I think we should strive
for, is, yeah, like, let's be good

service providers, good advisors, study
our industry, our topic and everything.

Have a skillset set, you know,
have a skillset set on top of that.

Um, but I, I believe that final step
a, a great goal is to then bring

that all together into something
that I can outlive you frankly.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, that's the goal.

I mean, my goal is that to take
everything outta my head, to

break it down into its component
pieces, to document it in some way.

And then to, to eventually have that live
outside of my head and you in the meantime

use it to supplement my consulting work.

So I can say something and say, go
here for the more full, complete

version of what I mean by this.

And in your case, that's training on
light bulb one three doesn't matter.

Like there's some definitive
thing you can point to and say

that's the authoritative guide.

It'll become your book, for example.

Uh, so it kind of supplements your
consulting and then eventually

can be sold outside of your head.

And if you're lucky, maybe leave a
legacy behind you and, uh, make the

marketing world a little better.

Billy Broas: Yeah, we'll see.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

I'm with you.

Um, okay, so just kinda shifting
gears just a little bit, how do you,

so how do you get clients currently?

So you've, you've kind of
got a few different methods.

It sounds like some of it's word of
mouth, uh, you've got a few partnerships.

Explain to me a little bit about
how you generally get clients for

all these different categories.

Billy Broas: Historically,
it's been two main sources.

So the first.

You have to go back.

I mean, this was, you know, before Covid,
but I would go to a lot of conferences.

So I'd say the, the first
source would be relationships.

Um, a lot of those started through
conferences and masterminds and

meetups and old school in-person stuff.

Hugs and handshakes.

So, and I would, I would do speaking
some speaking engagements too at

those at masterminds and conferences.

Uh, so that, that's, that
was, that's been the main one.

Uh, yeah, word of mouth, uh, people
introducing me to someone over

email who I helped in the past.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Billy Broas: And then the second one
again, and I, this is sort of before

this transition into the five before.

Five light bulbs.

Pre five light bulbs.

That's what I'm talking about now.

Uh, the second one would be, I got a
lot of leads and clients from Teachable.

And the reason for that is, if
you know Teachable, it's this

big online course platform.

Um, I, I got involved
with them back in the day.

This is a whole nother story.

I had a, a client, I was working as a, uh,
an automation consultant for Entreport.

I got certified through Entreport, mainly
for my own business cause I was using

Entreport, but I had some clients as well.

And I, and I had this big
client early on who was using.

It wasn't called Teachable at the time.

It was using, it was called Fedora.

That was their first name.

And, uh, an anchor, the,
the c e o, he's now exited.

Uh, we would work closely together.

I give him credit.

He was very much involved in, uh, in
working with their early customers.

And so through Teachable then I
got very plugged in with them and

they featured me on their websites.

So I had a lot of teachable
people who would come to me.

Kevin C Whelan: Very cool.

And that's how you probably went
down into the online educator

space, because I know you've worked
with some remarkable big creators.

And it's interesting as well, so I
wrote recently on like, let the ne

let the niche or the niche find you.

And as a copywriter and as a
messaging expert, you kind of

makes sense that you'd work with
online educators who are teaching.

And a lot of that marketing is
done in words in language, right?

Like it's, yes, there's ads and everything
else, but it kind of makes sense that

they have more of a landing pages have
a bigger involvement in the process.

Their ads have a big, you know,
component to it and the words that

are used in a very brief setting.

The funnels that you mentioned, the
emails that follow up, it kind of feels

like you landed on that both because
of your skills and your expertise.

You know, it kind of, it
kind of chose you in a way.

Billy Broas: these things into, into
benefits for people and these niche

topics, this is the curse of expertise,
is that you get, you're so in it, you

forget what it's like to be zoomed out.

And, and I, I was able to go in
and, and quickly learn these topics.

Uh, again, I really enjoyed learning 'em,
but then turn around and explain it in

simpler terms and, and in in terms that
someone, uh, would make someone wanna

join one of these programs and learn
this topic or, or go deeper into it.

So that was the unique value
that I provided, and it very much

aligned with what I enjoyed doing.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Very cool.

Yeah.

Yeah, cuz if you were to do
this for one of the niches, I

work with co-working spaces.

There's not a, there's not a,
as, as much value to be had in

like super nuanced messaging com.

Like it's, it's a known category with
some slight differentiators from client

to client, and then there's only a pool
of five or 10 spaces in a location.

And whereas you have a much bigger
impact with the online educator space.

Uh, so you've kind of followed
where the value was created too.

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Yeah, tho those are fun too, though.

I mean, that, that's a constraint, right?

Let's take a boring industry and, and try
to create some exciting messaging for it.

So I like that as a challenge as well.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Uh, yeah.

I'm a big fan of trying to convey one
main thing, so you can hook one, one

idea to your name, but not three and not
five, and like maybe you can com you can

combine some later on as the subtext.

But if you were to hook one main thing to
your business that I love that constraint.

I don't know if, do you do that at all?

Is like, is that part of your method
at all to say like, what, what

one main thing are we trying to.

Hook people on in terms of your
differentiator, for example.

Billy Broas: Well, and, and yeah.

And then this might even get into the
advice that we give your listeners.

What I say to do is with the five light
bulbs, you're always trying to figure

out which is the one that's gonna
resonate the most, which is the one

that we should turn up the wattage on.

And that, and that's really a matter of.

It's almost a lot of things.

It's knowing your market.

It's intuition, it's testing.

Kevin C Whelan: Right.

Yeah.

Love that.

Love that.

Coming back a little bit to the marketing
side of things, so you've, it sounds

like relationships were a big component
of it, and one of the recent trainings

that I did in the membership, uh, was
talking about the Golden Goose strategy,

which is instead of going out looking
for individual clients, which we all have

to do to some extent anyway, how do we
spend some, some of our time, Building

relationships with people who can refer
you to other people in the future.

So that would be things like, you
know, you've got partners, you've got,

um, you know, Teachable, software
that serves the target market

you're trying to communicate with.

So rather than going out and looking at,
for all these individual folks in your

industry or in your target market, folks
like, Teachable speaking at conferences.

Uh, you also partner with, I believe,
Tiago on some of your, uh, cohort stuff.

Tiago Forte of building a second brain.

Uh, and I assume he, he helps drive just
by virtue of the size of his audience.

Some traffic and awareness to the cohort
programs feels like a big part of your

marketing strategy, whether you've

Billy Broas: Yeah.

So now, so now post five light bulbs?

Yes, I have, now that I'm
growing my email list, so on.

Yeah, he's, I have a lot of people
from his audience on my email list,

cuz Yeah, he does have a big one.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, so
I just love that idea.

It's very hard.

Do you have any tips for someone
to find these opportunities?

It sounds like you kind of landed into
it through, through your interest of

your natural being and relationship
building, but like any tips in terms

of getting in front of other audiences?

Billy Broas: Yeah, I mean, I mean
the one with him, it's not glamorous.

I mean, the best ones you earn, I
mean, he, he wouldn't put his trust

behind me unless I did something
right and it took time, two

Kevin C Whelan: yeah,

Billy Broas: years.

Kevin C Whelan: yeah.

Did you write much copy for him?

Billy Broas: that's
not an overnight thing.

Tiago writing copy.

Well, um, so he, he has a marketing.

We don't work together anymore.

Um, we're just friends.

I'm going to his, his birthday
party in a few days here.

But he has a, he has a director
of marketing now who actually

graduated from our cohort and
she learned the five light bulbs.

Um, I didn't write a ton of copy for him.

It was more so calls with him.

It wasn't like me writing a
long form sales page for him.

He did one of my programs and
then we would do regular calls.

Kevin C Whelan: Very cool.

So he came in as a student or maybe
a, I don't know, a friend or something

who also took your course and then

Billy Broas: Yeah, this was an
earlier one before I was really

serious about doing programs.

It was a very small group.

Uh, and yeah, he, he came in, he
did that first, and then it turned

into a, a one-on-one engagement.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Very cool.

Love that.

As well as an initial way, you
know, that's one of the reasons

teaching what you know and having
a framework, uh, is a great way to

kind of build a backend offering.

Like, for example, I just did
a, I published a video of a

website, I believe it was Fletch,
and they do like homepage copy.

And that can be a great segue into an
advisory relationship cuz you've figured

out what, what the dials are, what
the messaging is, who the market is.

How to communicate it.

And then it's logical that you said,
Hey, you know, if you need help with

broader marketing and or applying some
of this to other areas, we can help.

And they didn't do that.

But, um, that to me as an advisor
mind is a great way where you, you

do something small like teaching or
doing a project and that can lead

into longer, bigger relationship
based market, uh, engagements.

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Some of my best one-on-one clients are
people who took one of my programs first.

Kevin C Whelan: That is a
very interesting insight.

Yeah.

That's super interesting.

Billy Broas: We're on, we're on the
same page, we hit the ground running.

They speak the language
of the light bulbs.

They know me, they trust me.

I know them.

I trust them.

It's a good first date.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, I think what I'm
trying to do with how to sell advice, uh,

rather than leading with a membership,
I wanna lead with a course by the same

name that then says, if you want help,
or if you're looking for more, more

like nuanced, deep, you know, around
the edges, content and coaching and that

kind of thing, the membership is there
for you rather than, Saying Everything's

in this membership, take it or leave it.

Which not everyone wants to buy, right?

But some percent may want to, you know,
some percent want to just take a course

and go away and some percent wanna do
that and then stay involved and are

living it day-to-day and want that

Billy Broas: Mm-hmm.

Kevin C Whelan: help navigating it.

So it's just an interesting way, like you
may be, you may wanna sell the ongoing

retainer of engagements, but maybe the
way is to package it up into smaller

projects or training like what you
did, especially because it led to such.

Great success for you in terms of
the backend and just in general,

just making a bigger impact.

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Yeah, it, it's been, I'm
really glad I did it.

And I also, I also love teaching too.

I really enjoy.

I know a lot of people don't, and
they'd rather not hop on a call and,

and teach and coach and all that.

But, uh, I really enjoy that.

It's not like I force myself to do it.

So that's, that's an important
thing to point out too.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, I remember telling
one of my teachers that I wanted to be a

teacher when I got older, I had no idea
wanted, wanted to do in high school.

And he is like, yeah, your,
you know, your grades are about

good enough to be a teacher.

And I'm, I'm like, okay, that's a
bit of a backended, uh, affirmation.

But no, it was, you know, I was
a seventies, eighties student.

Um, but, uh, but yeah, but then I remember
saying like, I'm gonna be a teacher.

I just, it won't be in a traditional way.

Like for some reason, as my path went
on way before I got, you know, deep

into the marketing world, For some
reason, I always knew I was gonna

be a teacher, and that's one of the
reasons I love doing this and helping

my peers and people at various stages
around me, is because teaching is just

a different thing than it's similar to
advising, and yet it's just a different,

very rewarding form of expertise,
conveyance and expertise, delivery.

And to make a business
out of it is even better.

Right.

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Yeah, it's great.

Kevin C Whelan: Okay, cool.

So you've talked a little
bit about your marketing.

You've got a great email list.

Are you writing every day now?

I know you transitioned into a more
frequent cadence you were gonna do daily.

Billy Broas: I email pretty
frequently compared to most people.

Uh, so yeah, three or four times a week.

Kevin C Whelan: You were actually one
of the guys who inspired me to, I was

on a daily train for like a couple
of years, and then I'm like, I like

Billy's style and that He kind of
shows up when he is, got something to

say and leaves and just comes back.

Sometimes like there's not, like what?

I don't what, like I don't actually read
that many weekly roundup newsletters,

and you and I write similarly in
that we write a letter, we write,

we say something, and then we try to
teach, you know, usually one topic.

Write an email.

It's very friendly and
conversational in tone.

Um, any thoughts on that in terms of how
well that approach has worked, either

just for you as the creator or in terms
of resonating with your, with your market?

Billy Broas: I, I, I think
it's worked for everyone.

I think everyone who's used it, I
think it's one of those old principles

that that's really what it is.

I mean, what is it?

It, what, what have we learned?

We throw away some, many of
these things that we learned.

Cause we think there's something
new that has replaced the principle.

It's like, no.

Oh, when you write something,
one thing, the rule of one,

keep it focused on one topic.

One, one.

Call to action.

Write it personal.

Write it from a letter to a friend.

Don't be a big company

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Billy Broas: and be frequent.

Show up frequently in people's
lives where you're more

connected to someone you see on.

Think about the people you
see on a regular basis versus

that relative that you see at
Thanksgiving once every three years.

You're not, you don't feel
that connection to that person.

So these are principles, f
frequency, one thing, let let

letter to a letter to a friend.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah,

Billy Broas: you know, and then,
and, but then we say, now I'm

gonna do this newsletter with 17
different calls to action in it.

And, and write it in
a very impersonal way.

So, yeah, I mean, I'm just
following the boring principles.

Kevin C Whelan: Well, what I like about
it too is that it builds a relationship,

you know, so it allows you to kind of
develop, and I think people do business

with people they know, like, and trust.

And so by you showing up and saying,
Hey Kevin, here's some, here's

an interesting thought for you.

Here's a challenge or something.

Here's something.

I've been working on it.

I'm left with a little bit of insight.

Didn't take me a lot of work, didn't
have to click a hundred links.

Um, but now I feel more
connected with your expertise.

I've gotten some value out of you.

I think that drip method really does pay
off in terms of building relationships,

which, as you've mentioned, is the key
to your success at the end of the day.

Billy Broas: Yes.

Yeah, and, and you have to, We
tend to think about marketing, like

that's something we have to do.

We just gotta get something out there.

We don't put much thought
or intention into it.

We don't think about it like a craft.

I think that marketing should be good
the way that your product is good.

I put a lot into those emails.

It's easier for me now cause
I've written thousands of

them, so I, I can do it faster.

It's more intuitive, but I, I put
in my 10,000 hours and so yeah, send

frequent emails, but try to make
them good and you're, and know that

you're not gonna be good at first.

But they, but eventually
you should be good.

Kevin C Whelan: And do you come into it?

Reverse engineering whatever your call to
action is, or do you come into it with,

here's a topic I've seen people asking me
a few times recently, or it's just, for

some reason it's on top of mind, like how
do you go about creating the, the topic?

Billy Broas: Mm.

Yeah.

It's a good question.

There are so many considerations to that.

I mean, one is the calendar,
what's going on the calendar.

You have to factor that in.

Uh, sometimes I'll just get an idea
and it's like something I just know.

A good story trumps everything.

So if I get a really good story,
it's like I'm telling that story.

Uh, a lot of people
underutilized their good stories.

Kevin C Whelan: Right.

Billy Broas: What else?

The five light bulbs, I, I
take that approach to it.

So go through the five light
bulbs, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and you're

always trying to find the one that
has not been given enough voice.

The one that say the thing
that no one else has said.

And, and, and people, other
people will give that advice.

The trouble with that is that it's hard
to know where to look to find that thing.

And so that's the nice thing about
the five light bulbs is that it gives

you, it's a framework for testing.

So you can say, let me try a
light bulb one email, or lemme

try a light bulb two email.

And a lot of people just have
not even seen that before.

It's something that's now, it's
like hiding in plain sight.

Right.

And then, and then because they
have, and that's a good opportunity

too, cuz typically if you haven't
said one thing and now you say that

one thing, the dam is gonna break.

So that's, that's how I approach.

And of course, like I said, there's
other considerations, calendar, personal

life, what's going on, et cetera.

Kevin C Whelan: This is one part.

Okay.

I've got this thing coming up so I
know what my call to action's gonna be.

So roughly I'm gonna, you
know, tie this into that.

The other one is, what I like about
your, what I love about strategy

and your method in particular is
that it makes visible the invisible.

So like, you know, I can have a,
I can operate with a strategy and

you'd have no idea what it is.

But if I told you and then you looked
back at all my marketing, you would see,

you would see that, uh oh, I get it.

I get it.

I get why they do the, you know, in
my case, my, I get why he does all

the, the things of what he does, cuz
this is what he's optimizing for.

This is his core strategy.

And what I love about yours is that
like, this is, you're making visible

and concrete the invisible, which is
like, You haven't talked about your,

your offer in this particular way.

Haven't talked about your
method this particular way.

Haven't really focused on all these
other things that they've, that

they've tried the status quo, you know,
which is, I think you're one or two.

So I love, I love that that, that it
forces you to think from angles that

are outside of your own head, but
also very logically from different

perspectives, and then it actually works.

You've, you've given me advice before
I've written an email and seen more

conversions or more action from.

Taking that approach,
it blew, blew me away.

I'm like, wow.

Like we all get so in
our head that we forget.

So it forces you to think in those lenses.

I love it.

Billy Broas: Yeah, I'm kind of obsessed
with the idea of blind spots and just

knowing that they're out there and that
they're the biggest area for opportunity

is to shine a light on those and.

And um, and look, and I
wasn't always this way.

It takes, um, I've been, especially
in my twenties, was very arrogant

and thought I knew everything.

And now I'm much more humble and,
um, and I'm excited by that cuz I,

I, I'm excited by the things that I
don't know and the five light bulbs.

Yeah, I mean, the metaphor
helps with this too.

The light bulbs where they shine a
light on these blind spots, right?

So it's sort of like a check
on your blind spots and just

acknowledging that you have them.

And if you know that, if you just
go back and forth through these

again because, and you, you can have
confidence in them knowing that they

map to this human experience and
making a decision like it really does.

There's no blind spot in it.

There's no dark spot.

The the, the five lipos cover
the whole bridge left to right.

And so if you do that, you don't have
to worry so much about blind spots.

Cause I do worry about those.

That's always my biggest fear
is what am I not thinking about?

What do I not know that I don't know.

Kevin C Whelan: Or I forgot to factor
in, like maybe I knew, I know this.

I know it, right?

I know it.

I just, it's the same reasons
surgeons have checklists.

Pilots have checklists.

If you read the checklist,
manifesto, you know, same idea.

Billy Broas: have a terrible memory
too, like my wife will tell you

this, and I'm very sensitive to that.

And so,

Kevin C Whelan: do.

I mean, I'm in the same boat, so,

Billy Broas: yeah.

I mean, my head's in the clouds
all the time, so, so yeah, so I'm,

I'm very aware of that and I try to
build in safeguards against that.

And so maybe this, maybe
this, maybe this is, yeah.

Maybe that's where this came from.

Kevin C Whelan: Well, that's exactly why
I have my Trello board, which I showed

you a long time ago, which is basically
like any good idea I have, I put it in

there and then I refine it over time.

Maybe I create training on it and
document it over time because during

my consulting engagements, I want
to be able to look at all my tools

and go, oh yeah, you know what?

We haven't tried this yet.

And that's what your framework
does in the micro sentiment.

Not a micro, in a smaller, like
a PLA application, and, but as a

broader marketing advisor, strategy
advisor, I have to think about

all the different components of.

The tactics and the
strategy and remember them.

So I, I'm a huge fan of getting a
Trello board, or in your case it's

a, it's your five light bulbs.

And then there's probably tons of
details in there cuz you do forget, even

though you've done it a hundred times,

Billy Broas: Oh yeah.

Kevin C Whelan: you do forget.

And these things are so valuable.

Billy Broas: Mm-hmm.

Kevin C Whelan: Um, couple questions
for you as we wrap up here.

You know, I'm gonna throw one that I
didn't prepare you for and uh, and then

I'll, I'll tell you about the other one.

What is the truest.

Sentence, you know, first thing that
comes to mind, the truest sentence.

You know about marketing?

Billy Broas: The truest
sentence I know about marketing.

It all starts with marketing, even
the product creation, everything.

It goes back to what we were
saying earlier about it's only

a good product if the customer
thinks that it's a good product.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

And is aware of it, I guess.

Billy Broas: yeah.

It's kinda, it's kinda like this idea
of this thing a copywriters say also,

which is write the sales page first,

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah.

Billy Broas: so forget what,
forget whatever the product is.

Write a sales page for something that
people really want, where they see that

sales page and they're like, please
give me that and then go make that

thing that I, that idea is what I'm
trying to capture with what I said.

Kevin C Whelan: Love that.

And it's like Jeff Bezos.

He's like, if you've got
a new idea, write a brief.

And like, and what they did at Amazon was
they would actually read the brief in a

meeting rather than them explaining it.

It forces them, forces you to
get clear and articulate all

your thinking in one place.

So they would sit, like all the
executives would sit and read the thing

in the meeting and then comment on it.

And so if, if that's working for Amazon,
one of the weakest companies in the

world, I, I just love that thinking in
terms of like, get, get the idea across

first, maybe even pre-sell it or not,
but make sure it maps to the market

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Yeah.

Kevin C Whelan: Last question for you.

Any, is there a book that comes
to mind that has most impacted or

changed the trajectory of your career?

Billy Broas: Hmm.

I'm gonna give you a a category of
books, but I'm really big on this idea.

I think we've lost a
lot of ancient wisdom.

I think we're so proud of our
technology that we think that everyone

who came before us was stupid.

And that's just not the case.

I mean, technology takes
time to be developed, right?

Like we just happen to be here when
this technology's being developed.

Um, so I, I don't, so, you know, that
tells me, Hey, there's probably things

to learn from people who came before us.

And so within marketing, studying the
old copywriters, I, I also really like

this idea of constraints, and it's not
that it's so much that they were smarter

than us, but they had constraints.

Constraints that we don't have that
created, uh, favorable conditions for

them to really figure out what works best.

Kevin C Whelan: Big direct marketing
with print or mail, for example.

Billy Broas: like, like having to
put the stamp on the envelope and

pay for that envelope to be sent
versus just sending off an email.

I mean, it just makes sense that
if we were in their position with

that constraint, we'd be more
likely to write a better letter.

If they were in our position where
they can just send off an email, they

wouldn't be as incentivized to spend
so much time writing that letter.

So I think, and so that, that, that's
a microcosm of a larger thing, but I

think we can learn a lot by studying
people who came before us because of the

constraints that they had, not necessarily
because they were smarter than us.

Kevin C Whelan: Any examples come to mind?

Billy Broas: Well, I mean, the whole
five light bulbs framework is, is

based on, mainly based on Eugene
Schwartz and his idea of, uh, belief

building, which I think is the concept
that even the, the top advertising

professionals on Madison Avenue
today probably don't even know about.

Kevin C Whelan: Yep.

Billy Broas: It could be a big GA
game changer for a lot of people,

and that's what I'm trying to do.

Also, one of the things with the five
light bulbs is I baked in that teaching

as well as some other ones so that it's
naturally part of the framework, part of

the system, so you get to take advantage
of it without having to go study all

these dusty old copywriting books.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, I mean, that one I
think you can buy it for like a hundred

bucks on, uh, we can, I'll find the link
and put it in the, in the thing for you.

It's not on Amazon.

You can't get it anywhere except this
website and, but it's a great one.

Or maybe you can, but they,

Billy Broas: I think
it's like 500 bucks on

Kevin C Whelan: It's like 500 bucks
on Amazon, or like a hundred bucks

on the web, the direct, right.

Um, but what I love about that is
like, yeah, that book is dense,

breakthrough advertising, for example.

Uh, but is, but is extremely good.

So if you can sit, if you want
to get, it's like the textbook

of marketing in a lot of ways.

And, um, but super valuable in
terms of you can't create demand.

You have to capture it and
talking about belief building.

Um, okay, well, well,
I'll send people there.

And also I think, you know, um,
Gary, Hal Halbert and others

potentially would be in that

Billy Broas: Yeah.

Gary Halbert.

Um, You can go way back.

Claude Hopkins,

Kevin C Whelan: Mm-hmm.

Billy Broas: uh, Joe Sugarman,
uh, his books are great as well.

Uh, Victor Schwab.

Yeah, you, you can google this, this
kind of thing and find a, a good list.

But yeah, study those old copywriters.

They, they knew what they were doing.

Kevin C Whelan: Yeah, and there's
some timelessness to that.

So thank you for working on behalf
of the marketing industry to bake

in some of these timeless and true.

Wisdoms into a methodology we can
apply in today's digital world.

And thank you for sharing your
business model with us and how you get

clients and how you market yourself.

Uh, where can people go to learn
more about you and to follow

along with what you're doing.

Billy Broas: Go to the five light bulbs.

That's the best place.

Yeah, opt in for whatever we have there.

You'll get on the email list
and we would love to have you.

Kevin C Whelan: That's
five light bulbs.com.

It'll be in the show notes.

And, uh, Billy's also on, uh, Twitter.

Good guy to follow.

Uh, if you're on, on the Twitters.

Okay, my friends.

Thank you so much, Billy.

I really appreciate, uh, you being
here today and sharing all your

wisdom and expertise with us.

And, uh, yeah, if you're not a member
of Mindshare, of Mindshare, uh, Billy's

got a great training on this stuff.

His website is where you wanna
go to find all the information.

Uh, five light balls.com.

Billy, thanks so much
for joining us today.

Billy Broas: All right.

Thank you, Kevin.

And that's it.

My friends.

I hope you enjoyed that
podcast with Billy.

I know I did.

We went really deep into how.

To create intellectual property and crate.

An entire business around it.

And that's really the most
fascinating part is that.

This whole thing is not
about just selling advice.

It's about having advice, be central
to the work that you do as one of

the ways you convey your expertise.

And what I like about Billy's method
is that he's come up with a proprietary

framework that he can use in terms
of selling courses, advising people,

because there's a ton of different ways.

You can use that framework in
a ton of different contexts.

Even though he'll teach everything.

He knows.

There's always ways that advising
can be core to what he does.

You can also write and
implement that stuff.

So this is the kind of nature of
what I'm trying to convey here with

the how to sell advice podcast.

And Billy really exemplifies
it super, super well.

I hope you go check out his
stuff five light bulbs.com.

And.

In the meantime, if you like this
podcast, share with a friend head on over.

If you're not on the mailing
list to how to sell advice.com.

Right on the homepage, you can get on
the mailing list and you'll get personal

emails for me, two to four times a week.

I typically just write short, friendly
letters and then sometimes I'll go

deeper on a subject and I'll share
a longer post, but it's always in a

conversational letter style format.

So.

Head on over to how to sell
advice.com, get on the mailing list.

And I really look forward
to the next episode.

We've got a few more episodes
planned and in the works for you.

So stay tuned on that.

And yeah, if you liked this episode,
share with a friend, that's all I ask.

Okay.

My friends, you have yourself a wonderful
day and I'll talk to you again soon.

Bye for now.