How to Sell Advice

Hello, and welcome to another
episode of mind share radio podcast.

My name is Kevin Whelan, and
today I've got a little bit

of a different format for you.

I have an interview with

and he is a founder of
low L O G O L O G Y.

Dot co and his startup basically
creates inexpensive logos for startups

that are designed by real people.

So you go in, you answer
a bunch of questions.

They, they come up with sort of a
personality in the assessment and then

they suggest some, some human made logos.

That you can then choose from.

And so we talk a lot about his.

Marketing strategy on Twitter
in particular, how he uses

memes to grow as startup.

He's very engaged, very active on Twitter.

He's got about a 30,000 person follower.

Many of whom have you'll
find out in the episode have,

have been recent subscribers.

He said has been kind of growing
exponentially since he hit 10 K.

So I wanted to kind of get under
the hood a little bit and find

out what is his core strategy.

What's his thought process.

What are the tactics he's using
and what is the mindset that he's

using to grow his Twitter, Twitter.

Profile and ultimately his business.

So we get into all of that stuff.

And I think this is going to be an
episode you want to pay attention to.

There's tons of really great.

I took away from it.

Great mindsets about how to approach
Twitter as well as other social

platforms, but Twitter in particular.

And this idea of memes as marketing.

And I think as marketers.

Using memes for ourselves using your
memes for our client are a great way.

Not only to get engagement,
which is sort of a vanity metric.

But to generally engage with the
community that you're participating

on and by tapping into the
zeitgeists and ideally to the.

The the, the Target market your niche.

So we're going to get into all that stuff.

I just wanted to kind of give a quick pre
intro to save the kind of awkward on the

spot and shows that, that I can come when
I, when I recorded during the interview.

So.

Without any further ado,
I'll jump right into it.

Listen to this one, take some
notes and be sure to follow Dego.

Bear.

If you want to see some great Twitter.

Uh, strategy and mindset and action.

His details are in the show notes.

It's a ad.

Dag.

Oh, Uh, R E N O U F is his Twitter handle.

I've had any further
ado we'll jump right in

So the reason I wanted to bring you on
is you seem to be a cult favorite in the

startup community and use memes as one
of the primary means of communication

but obviously that's not all you do.

Uh, you're very active, very
engaged with, your, you know, 30,000

almost now followers on Twitter.

So I want to unpack kind of two parts
is one your memes and how that works

with you and how it's worked for your
business, uh, as well as how you sort

of interact on Twitter and how you've
managed to go to get where you are today.

So maybe I'll just start with, what
is your overall kind of Twitter

strategy, if you could summarize
it in one to one to two sentences.

So that would be engage
with people, not like us.

I think.

Yeah.

And that, by that, I mean, don't just like
reply to people who like, you know, don't

dislike people who reply to your tweets,
but like actually go out of your way to go

see what people are up to anytime to them.

That's like the key.

And how, how many, like how many times
a day would you say you're, you're

replying and interacting with people
like what's do, I'm sure you're not

trying to hit a number, but if you give a
ballpark, how often are you replying and

interacting with people on a daily basis?

I think it was like between 50 and now.

Uh, basically, I just had like this habit
of like doing two hours every morning.

Like it's like the first thing I do, I
wake up, I open like the list of people

I follow and I go see what everybody's
up to and see if I can bring value,

be supportive, you know, basically
basically like it's a community.

Like once you understand that it was
a community and you're treated like

a community, like you come to the
community, Hey, what's up, what's up.

That works 10 times going up.

I love that.

So you're not really there to just
blast out content, which is the kind of

easy thing for people to think about.

You're really there just to think
of it as, as maybe Elon Musk would

say a town square where you're just
interacting with people the same way

you would, you know, on the streets.

That's the key.

I think a lot of people, they just.

Uh, you come to Twitter, you
see something, you like, you

like it, and then you move on.

But if you just actually like, just
hide one sentence to try to express

what you actually feel, that just
lazy, like the thing, it just changes

the whole dynamic of the person.

And if you do that, like with everything
on Twitter, it changes the whole.

Well, one thing I've noticed about your
replies on Twitter and your engagement.

Um, first of all, kudos for being
able to keep up with all that.

Um, but your, your, your replies,
aren't just like that's great or

well done or anything like that.

Your replies are, and I've noticed
this, not just when you reply to my

tweets, but just like I see your tweets
coming up all over the place on other

people's tweets that I don't even follow.

Well, you have a, you actually
add insightful commentary and I

don't know if, like, do you spend
much time thinking about it?

Are you just naturally, you know,
insightful or, or what is your sort

of just general approach to writing
a good comment to reply to someone?

Because they're not off the shelf.

Yeah, yeah, no, it's it's uh, yeah, cause,
uh, if you just like, cause like a few

people do this, they go and instead of
just liking, they like, and they'll reply.

Exactly.

So.

Okay, awesome.

But that doesn't help,
you know, to do that.

Uh, And I think the reason why, I mean,
uh, I actually try to think of my reply

as a tweet, like standalone tweet usually.

I mean, not if it's like congratulating
someone or supporting someone or just

like a fun of your blight, because it's
a fun context, but like, uh, it's about

like, if I shoot with that inspires me.

About.

Okay.

How can I make my tweets stand on its own?

Like, so it's like has,
has value on its own.

Um, and it feels me with just because I
was focused on bringing value to people.

Cause like, that's how you go.

Like you give people value.

So you spend time, like you have to
spend time to come to steak shortcuts

that take, you have to spend time,
but then over time, the reason I keep

doing it, even though I need to do
it less now, because I have a video

account, I keep doing it because it's
actually the best way to find good.

For me cause so, so basically like
there's two step now is like, I'm

going to use these replies as a way
for me to, you know, think about, okay.

That would be a good
answer for that tweet.

But then that reply can become three
weeks from now a standalone tweet

that I make for my own timeline.

Um, so now it's all like kind of like
a silent synergy between everything.

Interesting.

And do you save or record those
when you write a good tweet?

Do you kind of say so basically, yeah.

It's five times a day.

I mean, every morning let's say you're 50.

And I'm going to have, like between
two and five of them, I just see,

okay, this is just as potential.

So I copy and pasted in like one
of my task folder and also cookie

and pasted the link to the tweet.

And then like, let's say three weeks
later, I come back to it and I click

on the link and I see, oh shit, this
one guy got 15 likes as a reply.

So it's kind of like an MVP of my tweets.

Like seriously.

It's like, it's actually
like testing it as a.

And if it got some traction as
a reply, I know it's going to

succeed as a standalone tweet.

Interesting.

So you're looking for kind of signs of
life for that idea based on a replacement.

No, it it's.

So, cause like, if I replied to a
smaller account, it's not going to

get much likes because like, it's
just not my treat, but basically yeah.

Trying to find like, it's a mix of
like, I mean, if I feel like it's a

good one, I'm going to post it anyway.

But like, if I see like sometimes I
have a tutor, like always just like.

You know me Joko answer, but I get.

20 likes.

I'm like, okay, I'm going to
use that as a standalone tweet.

Cause it has a native of people.

Very cool.

So, okay.

Very cool.

So what you've been on Twitter, I
noticed your profile says from 2018,

but you were kind of saying that you
over the last year has been the monster.

Yeah.

And those May, 2021.

And we were like early may, 20, 22.

And now.

Yeah.

And is that when you sort of left
your job and you were like, I better

try this Twitter thing or what
happened almost four years ago?

Yeah.

Uh, I had some savings and, you know,
we just went full time with my wife.

Uh, she had some savings too, and
we just, you know, went full time.

It's built and we had this assumption
that we could be making million.

Quickly which didn't happen.

Uh, it's like a year and a half to launch.

So we basically, you know, quit and 7 28.

I mean, we started in September, 2018
launched in April, 2021, no, 2020.

So just after it.

So that's like a year and a half
and then it took us one more year.

So up to may 20, 21 to get some type of.

And some sales finally.

Uh, so it was a lot of like
sticking with it, uh, knowing,

okay, is this worth continuing?

Or should we give up, uh, you know, we
even have like a sealed co-founder who

came at some point and who, and who
didn't want to keep going because he

felt it was, it was never going to work.

Right.

So it was like a lot of, uh, you know,
keep pushing mentality that we had to.

Wow.

Wow.

Good for you.

I mean, and I remember I've seen your
several between saying something like

your mother, your father-in-law jokes,
he should just go back and get a job.

Uh, do you feel, is that a real thing?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

I mean, most of the memes
are not doing your thing.

Like it's like the jokes I make,
it's more like a per in, I invented,

it's not a situation that happened.

Not exactly like the original thing
was, uh, when like, End of 2021, you

know, end of 20, 20, early, 20, 21.

So one and a half years
ago we were making.

Like $150 a month, like setting
two logos for multiple startup.

Uh, and so this still could,
founder had just left.

We gave him money, uh, so we could get
back his shares, like, and that's when,

like my, my in-laws, I kind of lost
it and told us this, just go back to a

job, like stop wasting all your money.

It's stupid.

It's not going to work.

Uh, you know, like very demoralizing, uh,
And so that, that was helping for me to

like, have a way to, I mean, I was there,
we were pissed cause I grew up like, okay,

now you should be like supporting us,
you know, instead of sending us stupid.

So, you know, support us, but not too
bad, maybe crazy, but when it's stupid

and you know, and so, and the funny
thing is a few months later, like in

June, I think that was in June, 2021.

I May 1st meme that had some
taction was a joke about that.

About my father-in-law sending me to get a
job and me just building features and not

making any money and not understanding.

So that was just a good joke about that.

So th that's a good place to
kind of dive in a little bit.

I've noticed that there are a lot
of recurring themes in your tweets.

And so you're, you're you focus on
marketing, not features you focus on.

Um, making money, like, you know, you're
sweating and then you would get another

payment or another transaction, and then
you get little signs of life and stuff.

So you kind of have a
few kind of core themes.

Is that just because you noticed that
they've sort of resonated, you've tried a

bunch of things, you've tweeted a number
of things, and then you find some of these

big themes and then you can repeat them.

It does not like a big strategy is mostly
like, uh, at first I feel about everything

and then I saw, you know, both that
the best is to treat about two weeks.

It was when they started tweeting, I
was trying to make like good sounding

tweets, like sound like a novel,
or like one of these big accounts

that can spit out like four worlds.

And people are like, oh
my God, it's amazing.

So I was like, I want it to be
that a lot of people, when they

start Twitter, they do that.

If I to spit out like small sentences
and be like, yeah, that's a good tweet.

And then nobody gives a shit.

So that's what happened to me.

I tried that I, you know, and didn't work.

So then I asked.

Just talking about my experience.

So that's why I started reading like
bit longer, like long, long tweet.

So like kind of like a short
story, because that was a way

for me to tell my experience.

And instead of trying to make
a generality, I trying to just

say, Hey, here's what happened.

And trying to find a way for, for it
to be helpful with like extracting

kind of like a lesson I learned and
that way that was working way better.

And with demeans, it's
kind of the same process.

Like just making fun about things
and seeing some things make

people laugh more than others.

Um, But mostly like, since I do like
one meal per day, eventually I'm

like, I'm just hurting and have idea
that like every day I want to make a

meme because it's become a thing now.

So you just do it.

And I always play to like, okay, I
need to, so, you know, I have so many

ideas, like from time to time and I
tried them, uh, But does this like

high, now I have this thing about the
users against paying users, you know,

like, and like trying to pit them
against each other, like as a fun thing.

But yeah, the reason I talk so
much about marketing is about

what I just said about my expense.

As I said, the reason we spent
two and a half years building it,

not making any money is because
I didn't want to do marketing.

I hated marketing.

I thought it was stupid.

And I saw if I just made the best
product, I would have the next Facebook.

Like I thought, like if I just make
an amazing product that I really did,

that was actually a source of conflict.

Like the co-founder
that left and all that.

So like, I really know that that
feeling, I know that feeling of.

Making that mistake.

And so that's why I keep repeating it.

And at first I was like, people
are probably going to get

tired and that was back in like
October, so like six months ago.

But then I was like, I feel
like on Twitter, like it's so

like it's so moving, like people
change all the time on Twitter.

Like people use Twitter for a few
months actively, then they leave the

new ones come in, then some come back.

So I noticed.

It's good to have like the same tool.

It's not about repeating because I
always create like different memes,

but the same mistake, the same core
message, but I never copy and paste

tweet or mean, but it's like, I mean,
except like when I make it clear that

it's like, uh, an old one, but, uh,
but yeah, it's, it's mostly because

I also have like limited experience.

Like I'm not going to talk about VCs,
cause I don't want to raise money so high.

Now I'm talking about marketing.

I'm talking about.

Hi, now I'm talking about pricing
cause I'm about to increase my

pricing and it's stressing me out.

So I made a couple of memes about
increasing your pricing as a founder,

you know, but you know, this is because
I want to talk about my experience.

Yeah.

Interesting.

So yeah, there's kind of an
element of humor, which I

think resonates really well.

I think you naturally have have that
and that's a great, that's a great

skill and just a great natural.

And that seems to resonate really well.

Um, and then there's this idea of
working in public where you're basically

saying like, I'm about to raise my
prices and sometimes you make you, you

combine them, like you show you like,
maybe there's like a sweating image.

And then like, you're like,
I'm about to raise my prices.

Are you not in that exact meme format,
but you've done the similar with others.

Yeah.

So that's interesting.

So you, I also wanna unpack a
little bit about your idea of daily.

So I write daily, I've written for about,
uh, almost 600 days in a row on my blog.

Um, thanks.

Yeah.

And it's, it's a, you
know, it's a labor of love.

You do it.

If you're doing it seven days a week,
you're gonna, you have to love it.

You have to at least enjoy it.

And, uh, I like kind of, I like it.

It's a good exercise.

Um, what are your thoughts
on, in terms of deli daily?

I mean, a lot of people can't commit to
things weekly, monthly, let alone daily.

Uh, how important is that to you and
your strategy or just your approach?

So I don't actually hide daily
because they scheduled ahead of time.

Uh, what I do daily is
engaged with people.

Uh, I mean, to be honest, uh,
if Twitter didn't penalize.

MI for only engaging one day a week.

And I could just do one day engage with
like a hundred people and then be done.

I will do that.

Cause like it's stressful to have to
engage every day, but because it's

like so useful for my business height
now for how I go, then I'm like,

It's my way of getting customers.

So I need to make it into a habit.

So my daily habit is like engaging
with people and then about hiding.

So basically every morning is
dedicated to Twitter and the

afternoon is for all those things.

And usually what I do is like week a,
uh, afternoon is going to be hiding.

So it's going to be hiding
tweets, clearing names and will

be, it's going to be either.

Or, you know, doing some
other kind of marketing.

Um, so that's usually how I do,
but yeah, I noticed habits is so

important, especially when you start.

Cause like two years ago I
had almost no custom meals.

Uh, I didn't have any habits.

I.

You know, spend my day, try to do shit.

I had no, I had nothing
that really worked.

So you didn't have a plan, but
now it's like, okay, I have

this, I tried so many things.

And now I find one thing
that worked with Twitter.

So now it became a habit.

And now basically my whole life is
built to help the time when I need

to engage with Twitter, uh, then you
know, and it was hard at the beginning,

but, um, I mean, it's what it takes.

I know.

So that's what I do, but yeah,
I mold for habits in like how, I

mean, that's the only way I can
relax now is because I have habits.

Cause without it I'm over stressed
of like, I'm going to meet this

kind of like deadline I have or
like whatever, like it's impossible.

Yeah.

I love that.

It's actually something.

So as a marketing advisor, I
try to turn all of my good ideas

when I work with clients into a
system or a habit of some kind.

So that.

And I try not to have to take up
more than 20 or 30% of their time.

So, but maybe 20 or 30% is
like, let's run the habit.

What happens daily, weekly,
monthly, quarterly, annual.

And then how do you spend the rest of
the time going in the offense, working

on projects and that sort of thing.

And it's just fascinating that you
have that in, you know, replaces

discipline, as long as you do
the system, which still requires.

Um, yeah, yeah, you get the outcome
is the funny thing about like

leaving a job because I left a job.

And before that I was freelancing,
but basically, uh, the discipline

was coming from the outside.

Like you have to meet a deadline, you
have to do this for this guy, whatever.

And so the first year I
wasn't working much on myself.

'cause.

I was like, oh, I'm free of
like the responsibilities.

I'm free of the deadlines.

So like the first year I was probably
working three hours a day, to be honest.

Uh, cause I was like, you
know, I can do it this way.

They don't even realize,
okay, it's not going to work.

I need to work my ass off.

I'm going to succeed.

And then I started to see the
value of discipline, but like that

comes from me and as the beautiful.

Going up thing of like, okay,
you do it because you're told,

and then you stop doing it.

Cause you don't have to do it anymore.

So fuck that.

And then you'll realize,
oh shit, it's valuable.

And I was beautiful.

And now like, I mean, for the first
time in my life for the past two

months now I have an alarm clock.

I never had one before.

Cause I don't like it, but
now it's actually helping me.

And I'm like, is this baby?

Because I'm getting old.

I don't know.

But like I there's this thing
about, I actually loved that.

Setting my alarm clock, not too earlier.

I said it like eight 30 or nine,
but like, for me, it's still

like a fucking alarm clock.

And like I said it in the
evening and I'm like, awesome.

Tomorrow morning, I'd wake up and
be able to get good work done.

I'm still happy.

So that's like totally different.

Oh, that's great.

It's great that you feel that way
because a lot of people are miserable or

Sunday rolls around and they're looking
forward to Monday and they're just

saying, oh, I have to do another week.

And so in some ways you've already won.

I know you're not at the income level.

Maybe you're, you're hoping for,
you're not, you haven't become a

millionaire unicorn yet, you know,
but Hey, the road is ahead of you

and there's a big need for logos.

And there's so much scope that you
can expand to if you want it to.

But I only want, I mean,
I'm very happy, so yeah.

As long as your father-in-law recognizes
that too, it actually doesn't matter.

I'm only joking anyway, but I even
joked with you actually, I'm like,

if this whole logo thing doesn't work
out, you could start a meme business.

And I think he didn't know what
I mean, but I genuinely think.

Businesses could benefit, you know, so
I'm putting on my marketing hat again.

Now I know this, your, your approach
is unique to you and your experience.

Um, but I think, I think one of
the reasons I wanted to chat with

you is because I believe memes are
extraordinarily powerful way to

generate engagements, spread messages.

That's the whole thing.

There there's a viral component to
them and there's a whole communication

language with, you know, repeating images.

So people use the same sort of set
of images, their movies, screenshots,

and then they apply an idea.

Yeah.

So we're not going to go down that rabbit
hole, but I genuinely think you could

have like a whole memes as a service
if that, if that was even possible,

because I think it's that valuable.

And I think it's really hard for
companies to do that themselves.

Yeah.

It's kind of like, you know,
finding a good cook your high

two or something like that.

It it's about having your sense of humor.

Like it's really so, so, so

good.

Like I look at them now, look back.

And yeah, it's like, uh, that's why
I wanted to keep doing one a day.

Cause I really saw the potential and I
was happy and I was like, I'm going to

get better on this, you know, so yeah.

And they get a lot of engagement, man.

Like you get, I've noticed some of
them get over a thousand likes and

hundreds of comments, retweets shares.

Um,

it's not what brings
me the most followers.

It's not what brings me the
most, uh, meaningful, engaging.

You know, uh, uh it's and division
I keep, but I kept doing it

for fun, you know, at first.

Yeah.

And the interesting thing is now
it's part of my brand basically,

and now people know me for that.

And so now it's awesome.

But what I, what I mean by
that is that means in itself.

Uh it's like, it's like another
dimension of connecting with

someone, but like, Let's say I
share a story about my startup.

Like some very intense
thing that happened.

I'm going to get like the engagement, I
guess it's going to be people who care.

So they're going to be
curious about my story.

They're going to want, maybe follow me.

They go, like, it's going
to be a real connection.

And that's like the most valuable thing.

Whereas like a mean, even if it has like
2000 lights, we mostly people just liking

it and it don't give a shit about me.

It's just so cool.

You mentioned you like it.

They have fun.

They move on.

So it's like on a different level.

I mean, both sides.

What I'm saying is that, uh, I sought
out of people trying to do memes, you

know, recently like about startups
and they don't get action instantly.

And so they give up because
it doesn't really help them.

And so they realize that they're small.

Like, uh, the, the main value I get
for me is personal binding of like,

oh, this is the guy who does the memes.

Uh, so I'm known for that.

Also.

Yeah.

But, uh, the value comes in
like doing repetition of like

doing things all the time.

Cause it's like, kind of like, I mean,
you know, it's making people laugh.

It like, it's so much better to
build trust with people, you know?

Uh, like, like now I have a lot of
people who are customers of my startup

oncology and it's when I, you know,
I send an email to every customer to

thank them and some of them are reply.

I love the memes dude, you
know, and I, and I know.

The memes help in like
connecting on a deeper level.

Like it's not just corporate bullshit.

It's not like serious.

It's like also, Hey, we're having fun.

It's like the kids so much more bonding.

So I feel like if you only do
memes, it's dangerous, but if you

do them as part of like, uh, a
content creation that has some bad.

Like, like not just fun, but like
some value to bring then it's like,

they're kind of like the catalyst
and like the spice that makes it like

really more tangible and emotional
with people in a positive way.

Yeah.

I mean, so in marketing, there's sort
of two categories there's there's brand,

and then there's direct, direct, and
direct is more about like buy my thing.

Do do this, take this option.

That strategy and brand is about
how people feel and people only buy.

If they feel good, like very like,
like never do people like that.

Most people don't buy things unless
they feel genuinely good about it,

unless they're like coerced or they
need to, you know, they have to replace

their roof or something and whatever.

Right.

Even then they're going to go with the
option that makes them feel something,

at least the most comfortable, the
most confident, whatever the choice is.

So you're really investing in
that, which is like, it's kind

of like the opposite of selling.

You're just kind of joking
and having fun, adding value.

Creates a feeling and then people are
more likely to know, like, and trust

you and I've recommended your services
to several people because of that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Really interesting you say that
because, uh, so because when I went

full on Twitter, I can last last year
I completely stopped working on my

product because I had been working
on this for two and a half years.

It was, uh, and I had like
already customer feedbacks.

What are the inputs based on feedback?

Um, And so I spent like the next
10 months Twitter on, I did nothing

else, but on my life with Twitter.

Okay.

So I, you know, I started developing
this mean coding skills, you know,

hiring skills, you know, get better
engagement, Twitter strategy, all that.

And the funny thing is, uh, so I
started getting more sales from my.

From Twitter.

Obviously I say most of my
stuff's coming from now.

Uh, and because of that, because of
that trust factor and the second part

I noticed, which I knew, but I knew
intellectually, but I didn't realize

how powerful it was is I think it was in
December that I cost 10 K four wheels.

And that was in December.

If I remember correctly
as like four months ago.

Or four months.

Yeah.

Five months.

Wow.

So now you're at nearly thirties.

Yeah.

But like, it'd be, it's exponential.

So like, uh, it's like, it's a,
it's kind of like a normal, like,

it's like basically like the first
ones I got like a hundred followers.

Then the second, I got 200 then 400
and now like at between three and 5,000

a month, but it's still the same kind
of amount of work, but it's because

they, the network cause big around you.

So like every time it gets more viable,
you know, it's really interesting.

Interesting.

And are you sales going up?

Are you sales growing exponentially?

Like I know, I know you've
showed me a chart basically.

There's wait, let me
just finish my thought.

There.

It's like where they cost 10 gay.

I mean conversion rates with
no thing else that changed

conversion rates just went way up.

But when, I mean, way up, it's like, I
mean, it's very hard to measure because

like it's like it's between 25 and 50% up.

And that was to me, like a big
change in sales around the same

time that I went above 10 K.

Because, and, you know, I can't be
certain, but I noticed also the way

people behave with me on Twitter change.

And I think there's something about,
you know, social proof obviously.

And so it's like one of these components
of like, looking like you will someone

just because it's just a number, you know?

But like it still counts for people.

I didn't know, it counted
so much, but it does.

And so it completely changed
the way people trust me and my.

And if you mix that with like the human
side and like the value side, like

the old thing together, it's like,
no-brainer like, I trust this guy.

If I need a logo, I'm going to see him.

Right.

And you're so consistent though.

Cause I always say there's
three, there's three factors.

There's recency.

How recently have I heard of someone?

Cause that's going to be making
them more likely to refer or by,

uh, how frequently do I see them?

Cause then you're, you're making
more of an impact in my brain.

You're paying and my brain would value.

And then the potency, which is where I
think the memes really come in house.

How, how, how high fidelity, how
good is that experience or how like

how much impact does it make you
connect with someone emotionally?

So by you going daily, you're
you're checking the frequency.

Also, you're engaging with
people like crazy in a great way.

Uh, it's a recency frequency or then, and
then the memes really added a significant

additional level of potency in my view,
just from an outsider's perspective,

because it just kind of creates an emotion
as opposed to like, Nepal is great,

but most people can't be in a ball.

And so a lot of times, you know, the,
the platitudes don't create an emotion,

therefore you're not really facing.

Yeah.

I don't know how, but the thing
about platitudes is I used to say.

Uh, so, you know, I tried it,
so I had this, uh, I wanted

to do a petty to like him.

I mean, all like big accounts and
actually, and I failed and then I was

like, okay, it's because I'm a smaller
account, which is a part of the story.

Okay.

Yeah.

But then I realized, as I hiked
every day, he bites people every day.

Like it takes a big
skill to do a good place.

You know, and actually some platitudes
islands, platitude, uh, suits, because

the more I hide the more now I have
this skill of now, I mean, a bit

more the skill of saying something
meaningful, like a few words, because

I said it so many times because I told
my story because I replied to people.

So now I can make platitudes.

That sound good.

So now I do some of them like some very
short ones, uh, and they found, and they

are like, Um, and like this isn't all
too hiding, like very short statements

that I didn't have at the beginning.

And now this last couple
of months I started to do.

'cause I noticed some of my replies
and I didn't want, because I was

like, okay, I had this experience in
the past of writing a short pretend.

It does.

It feels, really realize when
it's so really like when the 3d

hits, it's kind of like a meme.

I can mean if you want it to work,
it's usually better to have very short

caption, uh, you know, uh, that's what
I noticed because it just hits you way

more, but like it's harder to make the
full caption because it has really.

It's like the same is the same.

Like if you really are able to make
your point at like five wheels and

it's still an unique perspective, that
is not a platitude, it's just like a

file tweet, but it takes like, it takes
hiding a lot of long tweets to get there.

It's kind of like when you hide a blog
or something, You start this, like, you

know, 2000 worlds and then you trim it.

It's like 500, you know,
you know what I mean?

It's kind of like the same thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I try to keep my blog post
under 300 discover one idea.

And that means that my brain is tired.

It's long and it's kind of tired like in,
it's not that clear, but when I'm, when

I'm clear-headed I can get those down and.

And, uh, that's the key, I think,
to like, if you're going to go

there to me, they're daily emails.

So if you're going to, if I'm going
to go into someone's inbox, I want

them to be like, yeah, I'm going
to get something very quickly.

Some little hit of value.

Yeah.

Cause it's daily.

It's like, you want it to be quick.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because no one's going, you
know, it takes mental energy to

read stuff and whatever else.

Um, yeah, interestingly, so.

So you have this work in public
and I, and I love that because it

shows them kind of vulnerability.

You know, when you, when you joke
about, you know, income fluctuation

and all these other things, you've
talked about your challenges.

Um, I guess, you know, just to kind of
think in terms of the listeners of this

podcast and video, uh, will, you know,
some of them are marketing consultants,

some of them are, um, freelancers.

And so there's this expectation that
you need to be sort of an active.

And, uh, and sometimes I guess
people are challenged by working

in public because they also have to
be a learner and they have to be,

you have to be open, vulnerable.

Um, what do you like, how do you think
working in public works for someone?

I mean, you're not a consultant or
freelancer, but what would you suggest for

someone who's trying to work in public?

Both being, showing
intelligence, but also.

Vulnerable.

I mean, do you have any thoughts on that?

Yeah.

Well, it kind of like brings me
back to what I said earlier about

trying to sound like a bad-ass
versus sharing my experience.

And that's the same, like now I
noticed it's very dangerous to

try to sound like your next builds
because then it becomes an argument

like people can say, oh no, you.

Oh, people can say, oh,
no, I don't believe that.

When you try to make a statement
of like, here is how you

should do your life, you know?

And so now I stay away from that.

And so my advice would
be, what have you learned?

What have you noticed?

I kind of like to get from a humble
perspective of like what I have noticed,

but not trying to take, take it to like
conclusions that are kind of like closed.

Like don't say.

I don't want to say to people like to go
on Twitter, you need to do exactly this.

I would rather say here's how
I learned to go on Twitter.

And here's what I do to do that.

I mean, to reach like 30 K followers,
and I think it was small change,

but like when you do that, people
supposed to way more, I mean, it

depends like some people can make it.

Well, you have some people like
you just look at their profiles.

Oh, this guy is the shit.

I want to listen to what they say now.

Again, just like what I'm.

There's not the only way I'm not telling
you this is the only way I'm telling you,

if you will feel uncomfortable with that.

I mean, it makes sense.

Like, for me, I do feel
uncomfortable with that.

And so yeah, I would advise to just like
focus on, like, again, people cannot

argue with like, Hey, here's what I
learned, but they can help you with.

This is what you should do, right?

Yeah.

And people don't like to be
told what to, what to do.

Right.

I mean, entrepreneurs, especially.

Interesting.

Um, yeah.

I was going to ask you a follow-up
question, but I can't, I can't remember

what it was, but it's just interesting
that cause of creates a really connection.

I think people do business with people.

Like if you removed Elon Musk from his
company, I don't know if they would

have, like, they don't do any marketing
because he's on Twitter, which makes

sense as to why maybe he's thinking about
buying Twitter and he does memes as well.

And he's very funny.

Yeah.

Um, so, you know, we'll buy from
people and that's interesting.

Yeah.

And you'll do like a few people, like.

Who follow me, who I become, uh, you
know, uh, kind of like, you know,

Twitter friends with like a bunch
of young coders, mostly from India.

Like some guys, someone is 13, there's
one, who's 17, like young kids, like just

learning to code, but it's just like tweet
every day they have big like audience

between 10 K 50 K these guys just like
also on Twitter all day and they code and

they learn to code and, you know, even
me, like I have like 15 years experience.

I'm like when I need to hire someone
to code, I'm probably good to this guy.

Like this guy is like 15, but
like I see he shares about what he

learns and I'm like, oh, he knows.

You know, so there's really not this,
I mean, at least for me, maybe some,

cause I mean, obviously depending
on who you're targeting, like I'm

an entrepreneur, I'm a self-learner.

So I don't mind hiring someone who isn't
like an expert, but like, depending

on who you're targeting, but if you're
targeting people, you know, normal

people, I don't think they would mind.

Like, I mean, as long as
it's not like crazy B2B.

Actual Hockett science shit.

Like you can just think, you know,
I feel like it's, it's, it's usually

going to pay off more to be vulnerable
and share your learnings because

when you share your learnings,
people trust that, you know, right.

You're not just talking
on high from a mountain.

You're saying I tried this.

And what I love about you is like,
Like I tried this, it didn't work.

Now I do this and it works.

Like I thought I needed
to build more features.

And this is a big one of your hooks.

Like I've done.

I needed a big build, more
features for my startup to grow.

It turns out I just needed to do
marketing now it's working or something.

And so it's a nice way to say, like
here's where I ran into the wall.

Here's what, here's my insight.

Rather than saying like thou shall
market all the time and whatever.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

So we've talked about
kind of working in public.

We've talked about memes, we've talked
about daily and I think, you know,

in, in habitualizing what you do.

Um, we've talked about the kind of being
a little bit vulnerable, and I think

that's a really valuable skill to have.

We've talked about the way you reply.

You want to make your
replies feel like individ.

Uh, tweets and then maybe eventually
turn them into individual tweets.

Um, I'm just wondering if we could get
a little bit tactical before we kind of

wrap things up and just sort of understand
maybe some of the tools and, and sort

of your workflow as you go about it.

Like you're a power user on Twitter.

Is there any tools you use to
make that process easier or so

you can more or more efficient.

So then, okay, so for Twitter,
uh, I use a few tools.

I think the big, the big thing,
but once you start engaging with

people, you start getting lots of
notifications, even at the beginning,

like even when I had like 500 followers.

Uh, and so the big thing I started is
I started learning Twitter keyboard

shortcuts, because you can actually
use Twitter, which was the keyboard.

If you want.

It's kind of like has, you know, BIM,
uh, shortcuts, you know, not that.

Using VIM, but like, I know, you
know, it's something people know,

uh, I don't want to pretend like I'm
a Veeam user, cause I'm not, I use

an IDE, I use visual studio code.

I'm a human being.

I'm not like this crazy
amazing engineer, you know?

So don't think that, uh, so yeah,
so yeah, so I use that, uh, you

know, learn the Twitter shortcuts.

So now I only use the
keyboard for Twitter.

So it allows me to go from one tree to
the next, like using J and K and like.

And also bought a small tool for
emojis, which is called pockets.

Like your hockey chip.

I've used that before.

Yeah.

It's like a $10 a Mac app.

I mean, I'm on the Mac.

You probably can find an equivalent of
windows or Linux, but like, because I

use tons of emojis all the time, maybe
it's because it takes so much easier to.

To connect with people emotionally.

Like if you just say, Hey, thanks.

I like it, but it's cool.

But if you say, Hey things, I like it,
uh, you know, hockey, chip emoji, heart

emoji, like it just connects with Depot.

So I use emojis on almost everything.

So I have this thing which allows me
to have keyboard shortcuts for emojis.

So I basically just going to type
a, like a key, it opens like, uh,

an, uh, kind of like in slack, you
know, when you can, you know, Yeah,

you basically, you said you type the
world, like you type those specific

key and then a world, and it's going
to give you the emoji for that world.

So I can really stay for like keyboard.

So it makes me go twice
as fast for replying.

Cause like, and even for engaging,
cause I engaged like two hours a day,

so like it's one way to be effective.

And then it's like, I'm going to use tools
like black magic, which is the big one.

It's a Chrome extension by Tony.

Uh, it's like paid, it's like, I
think $7 a month, the first place.

And what it does, is it the number one
thing I use it for is to know if one

of my cause like, you know, Twitter
depends a lot on the algorithm of like

how your tweet is going to succeed.

I'm actually, you know, I think a small
course on that to help people figure

out how to get engagement on Twitter.

I was going to ask you about that.

Yeah.

About your thoughts on algorithms.

Um, maybe we can do a quick tangent.

Is there any main things with
the algorithm that you look for?

Uh, you know, the algorithm is
actually fairly stupid and simple,

uh, and that's why engaging with
people work so well, basically the

key is how do you make people see you.

Because you think people follow
you, so they see your tweets, but

they don't like your followers.

Don't see your tweets, like by default,
because I did just like a feed over like

tons of shit and you're not in it usually.

So how do you get in it?

Well, they need Twitter needs to think.

I mean, needs to know that they like you,
you know, they need to think, oh, okay.

I like this guy.

So Twitter will show me
the content of this guy.

Yeah.

So how do you do that?

Well, you engage with them.

You engage with them
by engaging with them.

If you are actually useful or supportive
or whatever, they wouldn't get you back.

And if they engage back, it tells Twitter.

Oh, okay.

This is, there's a relationship there.

So next time you tweet, they will.

Yeah, because I see like 50
people's tweets now, and I

follow maybe 800 or something.

It's, it's actually bad.

And I like, I need to go in
and look at my followers and

started messaging like replying.

And I don't use the feed at all.

Like I actually have like a small
strip that I built that goes to

people and tells me who treated in
the last 24 hours and then opened a

provider and I can go whatever I do.

So that there's the whole systems
I'm starting to hide about it.

This has been useful to people like that.

I talked to some time hiding
this whole system, but yeah.

So the tools that I use and the
second most important one is like

black magic, because it tells me
if it really is for tweets fail.

Cause like when you hide content,
like it's takes a long time to

write, you know, call it content.

Like how do you know if
something is good or bad?

If like, imagine like you tweet a good.

But then it bombs because like
the algorism didn't show it to.

So then you don't have actual feedback.

You don't know.

So the good thing with black magic
is it tells me the percentage of

engagement and, you know, based on
my past tweets and based on like,

you know, on the regular performance.

So, you know, if your tweet
is like above average or below

average and what it helps me.

It doesn't happen so much anymore
because now, you know, I always think

I do the algorithm shows me everywhere.

I usually, but it's great.

It used to be so helpful at the beginning.

Retweet something, you worked your ass off
on it and it gets like two lights or zeal.

And then with black magic, you know?

Oh, okay.

It's because it has zero impressions
or like very few, but you can see

that the percentage of people who
saw it actually engage with it.

So it was actually a good one.

So then what I would do is I would
save it and then, you know, three

months later I tweeted again and
then it would take off because the

algorithm was in better mood that day.

So it's very important to know
is your content is good on.

To have that cause, you know?

Right.

So that's a great, so even though
it, maybe didn't get a lot of

impressions, maybe publish it at
midnight and your, your audience's

online at seven in the morning.

Yeah.

And I do that all the time.

Like by the time I write my, I often read
my daily article at night and then I'll

just, I'll either publish it or I'll just,
I'm trying to save it for the next day to

just share something about it and read.

We communicate it and links suppress it.

Right.

So you're trying to, you want to
leave everything on the platform?

Is that it wasn't no use links, but
yeah, you should, you shouldn't.

Yeah.

Yeah, so, okay.

So you use black magic, you
have your own little tool to see

who's tweeting the last 24 hours.

I guess you can turn off the, the,
the, you can shoot credit to like

timeline view or something, or use
tweet deck, if you wanted to like,

just see the stream of tweets.

Yeah.

Uh, I mean, if you gonna use the
Twitter basic experience, you should

like use the little icon in the top
height to switch to time and not.

Yeah.

I mean, I say that, but when I say
that, then people see less of my

tweets because my tweets are pending.

So they're not going to be showing
cause they might show up, but

usually have a little bit still the
real thing is if you want to go on

Twitter, don't go on the fucking feed.

I'm not going to show you
the people you want to see.

Right.

Yeah.

And that's the problem that
I'm experiencing right now.

I'm like, I'm looking for people's
tweets that I follow and I'm not seeing,

I'm seeing the same 20, 30, 50 people.

Yeah, because they figured
out, yeah, you gotta go.

Yeah.

And I'm not replying enough.

And so it's really a matter
of engaging with people, like

treating it, like it, you know?

Cause if I'm not engaging with people
then, or enough, then I'm not going

to see their tweets and then they'll
go, they'll basically go dark.

And I mean, uh it's if
they don't engage with you.

Um, yeah, earlier, but no.

Yeah, if you don't engage with
them, you're not going to show this.

Exactly.

Yeah, yeah.

Especially to get the ball rolling
and then more people see it and then

engagement goes up and that sort of thing.

Okay.

Any other tools that you want to share?

I don't want to get too far into
the tactics, but because it's really

about before all the means, uh, I
use a tool called image flipped, so.

F L I P uh, like a website and it's very
cool because you can like bounce templates

and see what people have done with it.

So, you know, actually how to use it.

I mean, what kind of joke
is expected with a template?

Yeah.

Then you can just take a joke and, you
know, turn it into whatever you want it.

It's like, that's how I started now.

I don't use it so much because
I exhausted all your templates.

So now I kind of like go like nine
gag and it, and find like templates.

Nobody knows about that.

Kind of like, you know, cutting edge shit.

But yeah, I mean, if you just
want to create a few means, go to

image flips, look at their popular
templates, look at how people use it.

And.

Try to find a couple of ideas.

Usually you can find a place if
you, if you stick like one hour

looking through things, eventually
you'll think of something.

And do you try to hop onto trends?

If there's any like current trends with
memes, you know, humps, some memes go

really viral or they're everywhere.

Did you try to hop.

No, I, I really hate following plans.

I don't know it comes home, but it's
not even just limited sort of it's with

anything like with music, with anything.

I hate it.

Cause like, I feel like when you follow
the trends, you, you don't know if

it's good or bad, you know, but like
if you wait for a few years, then.

So that's how I, but with tens, I
probably, I told him, people kept

telling me, do a meme about the, you
know, will Smith of the sleep thing.

I want to build more
features and I didn't do it.

And tons of people who did it, because
it's an easy way, like marketing easy.

I still wait from that.

Now I stay away from the easy worlds
because there's like, I need to stay

on top of my game, like people make.

And so I try to find new ideas.

So yeah, I didn't do it.

Maybe I'll do it someday, but I
wasn't, I wasn't inspired by this one.

Yeah, well, that one is, I mean, there's
a lot of emotion packed with that one.

Then I could see maybe where I don't know,
but I mean, I'll do it when I find like

the perfect caption that nobody expects.

Like I'm not going to do with, you
know, marketing, slapping features.

But if I find some crazy
idea, that's actually new.

Do you, so do you, would you let it
season, would you let it age out?

So it's no longer popular and
then bring it back when people are

not expecting it kind of thing.

It doesn't last minute.

Really?

Okay.

That's good.

Because that one feels like a perfect
prime opportunity for someone saying,

oh, I'm not going to market my business.

I'm just going to add
more features my startup.

And then you can imagine will
Smith come and be like, you know,

smacking the sense out of some.

Yeah, that'd be that.

But, uh, well this has
been really, really great.

I think I just wanted to kind
of share with the community.

I think memes as a marketing
tactic, it can be highly effective

and, um, tactic that's the thing.

Right?

Cause what I like about your approach is
you, you, you, you a, your main philosophy

or mindset, which is, I think important
is to treat it like a, like a community.

So you're interacting and
participating in the community.

You wouldn't go up and over
here, something someone said

and be like, that's great.

You'd say, oh, I heard the same thing.

Like, you'd say something meaningful.

If you were going to say something to
someone, so the community at large, and

I can tell you, spend time thinking about
it because your replies are as good as

most or better than most people's tweets.

Um, so we talked about working in
public daily, creating habits, you

know, I've used a few, few tools,
the tools don't don't you can,

there are many tools out there.

Yeah.

It's really about the mindset.

So I don't want to over reinforce
that, um, any sort of parting advice

for someone who wanted to grow their
business, whether you know, or help

their clients, in my case, grow their
business, using Twitter or using memes.

Is there any sort of, kind of
final bits of wisdom or takeaways

that someone can, can pick up?

So I think we covered the most important
benefits about business specifically.

I would say focus on like the person
and not like the blind account.

So even if you're like a brand, cause
like we have an account for started

ecology, you know, we have, but like if
it's just a logo and not like your face,

like it's not going to connect as well.

So like the big thing people
do is they just state.

They just use a blend account and
they're like, oh, it's not going.

But like it's actually 10 times harder.

And I use this example.

I'm like, if you had a choice
between following Steve jobs

and apple, who would you follow?

You know, what is going to give you
vision of the world or like Elon Musk

versus Tesla, what is going to give
you insights that are interesting?

And the other one is going
to be product updates.

So, you know, who gives a shit, you
know, so it does the same thing.

And you're trying to
build a brand new account.

I will really try to strive for that.

Who's the person behind the brand.

Uh, you know, and I would focus on that.

I feel like it's the big thing.

And actually by doing that,
I grow my brand account.

Cause people know I'm doing a good,
at least a day and they check it, we

hold like a few, like a dozen followers
or a couple dozen photographs a week.

Uh, we, we post a few updates on
there, you know, because it's,

it's more like a professional
thing to show people that we exist.

People that don't know
me, but know they got it.

You know, but yeah, I would focus
on the personal and not the plant

when you try to, so let's say you're
trying to market any business.

You're saying, you know, try to use this,
bring the CEO in, help them voice, or

the person that the person on the team.

Then you can identify as
like part of this company.

And that has a voice because
people connect with people.

Yeah, well, this has been really great,
Doug, thank you so much for taking

the time to share this with us and,
um, a lot of value packed in here.

So I'm going to write up a
whole bunch of notes and share

this with, with the community.

Um, where can people go to first
of all, follow you so they can

learn from the best, uh, on
where can they go to follow you?

And then where do they go to
learn more about your logo design?

So the Twitter is a, you know, you can
find me that Google news about it.

It does not like too many, so
you should find me quite easily.

And then the business is called dot CEO.

And you know, the whole thing
is about helping you blend your

startup with like the same quality
as working with a designer.

But without having to hire a designer,
you know, we designed everything.

So we just met the perfect thing
and you can be ready quickly.

I love that.

Anything else you want to plug?

Uh, or anything else you want to share?

No, that's it.

I have just two things.

I'm like pretty focused on that.

And soon there'll be a
small course about Twitter.

I'm going to police, I'm working with
it now, but you know, when you build

a startup, it is so much things to do.

I don't know when it's going to
come out, but you know, I'm saying.

Yeah, it's not your core.

So you just do it in your part-time,
but I know this has been a bit of a

masterclass, so I appreciate there's
a lot of wisdom and gems in here.

So when that happens, let me know.

So I can share it with everyone as well.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you, Dave.

And, um, it's been a pleasure chatting
with you and, uh, I look forward to

connecting with you again on Twitter.

Yeah, that was good.