How to Sell Advice

How to avoid the employee trap as a
fractional CXO, as a fractional leader.

So as you know, I've, I'm very much in the
world of fractional marketing officers,

chief marketing officers, as well as.

There's a very.

Substantial trend towards other
forms of fractional leadership.

Some.

Noticing, you know, CSOC
chief security officers.

I'm noticing.

Fractional chief information.

Officer's fractional tooth.

Financial officers.

And all those have their own
little kind of nuances and nitty

gritty nitty gritty pieces.

And obviously my expertise is in the
marketing area, but I want to kind

of focus on how do you avoid becoming
basically an employee if you're

positioning yourself as a fractional
leader, as a fractional CXO of some kind.

So that's what I'm
going to get into today.

And this kind of came as a question
from member a Darren and the group.

He has that he's going from being
a CMO full-time to doing this

as a fractional CMO service.

And he's kind of wondering, well, how
do you get, how do you avoid getting

pulled into the employee kind of trap?

How do you set boundaries so that
you don't become basically a.

A part-time set of hands and you
know, that's the thing is when you.

When you're not super clear on the
scope of what you will do or not.

Uh, it's really easy to get sucked into
being a pair of hands and ultimately

to kind of become an employee.

So there's a bunch of tips that I'm
going to give you today, and we're

going to kind of break those down.

There's there's five big ones
in particular with a lot of

kind of sub pieces to us.

So let's, let's jump into how
do you avoid getting sucked

into being an employee, but.

You know, creating healthy
boundaries, et cetera.

So the first and most important
thing with all of this is setting

clear expectations during the sales
conversation that you're not an employee.

It's really easy to get excited
when you're charging five to $10,000

per month, or even some people may
be theoretically more than that.

And you're saying, look.

Uh, I can do all this for you,
you know, you should hire me.

And then it's really easy to get excited
and to kind of sell yourself and then not

kind of slow the conversation down and.

Get clear about what you're going to
do and what you're not going to do.

So really just kind of, first
of all, setting an expectation

that you're not an employee.

And what are, what are the differences
between an employee and a, and

a, uh, an, uh, an a full-time.

Uh,

Contract.

CMO.

There are many.

So any, any kind of
contract relationships.

You use your own equipment,
you do work that you believe is

necessary to get a business results.

So the client can just say, here's
all the tasks I want you to do.

Go do it.

It, uh, that.

Technically puts you into an
employee relationship, which, you

know, whoever your local, uh, tax.

You know, agency is not going to
love because that's an employee

relationship that they're just
paying you as a contractor.

Uh, you get to work the hours
you want, you get to work

where you want, how you want.

Uh, you can say things like you're
available for scheduled calls.

You'll respond within X hours.

But it's not like they can make
you show up at the office nine to

five every single day, because then
effectively you become an employee.

So there are some legal specifics
that make an employee and employee in

a, in a contractor or a contractor.

So it's really just important
about understanding what the legal

ramifications are, but then also
just kind of setting, resetting the

expectation that you're a consultant
at the end of the day, they are very.

Senior and experienced and
intelligent consultant.

And you're not just a set of hands.

And so kind of setting that up front.

So kind of being like, look, if you
want me as a part-time employee,

I'm not that here's what I will do.

And here's what I won't do.

And, uh, so really getting really super
clear on setting those expectations about

who you are and who you're not because
yes, a fractional CMO positioning is good

to kind of get people to be like, okay.

So you're like hiring a.

Uh, part-time.

Uh, marketing leader.

Great.

But you also then want to
push back and be like, okay.

But that just so you know that it
doesn't mean you just get a, part-time

set up hands from a marketing leader.

Um, To do whatever you want.

It's really about getting a
business objective accomplished.

And I do that the way that I know how,
and we'll get into that in the next part.

So first is just setting
those expectations clearly

and almost pushing back.

And this is the heart of this is your
first client or two pushing back a

little bit and saying, okay, before
we get into this, let's just make sure

we're, we're clear on what that is.

And that kind of puts us into step
number two, or idea number two, which

is to create a clear scope of work.

And you did mention in the community
that you have a clear scope and

yet the client continues to ask
for more and that's kind of normal.

It kind of sounds as though.

There might be.

Going back to the first idea.

There might be few expectations
that are a little bit kind of

misaligned, and you have to decide
how you're gonna manage those.

And it's not always easy.

So it's really critical upfront during
the sales process, which is too late

for you in this particular case,
but we're learning for the future.

To really say, Hey, this is what
it is, and this is what it's not.

And to put that into your scope of work
and just to kind of remind them, but

the differences between an employee
and a contractor from the beginning.

So what kind of scope items would
you put in a fractional CXO style?

Uh, engagement.

And so here's some of the things that
I think about when I do my CMO stuff.

First of all, I don't ever
do fractional CMO work.

As a done for you kind of managed service.

I call it managed
advisory services as well.

I don't do that for longer than three
months now because it completely

derails my business and it sucks up
every available minute that I have.

Uh, when I had two of these clients,
when I first got started, they took up,

I don't know, 80% of my time or more.

And I had some lingering client
work for my agency working.

Anyway, it can really just become a
vacuum that sucks up all the extra time.

If you're not careful.

So you're going to experience this.

There's really no way around.

You just have to go through it
and you have to be okay with

kind of pushing back and setting
boundaries and then sort of being.

Making yourself unavailable.

If you need to.

Uh, so that you don't get overly.

Taxed at the end of the day, but
because this is your first client and

your only client, I'd say just, uh,
manage those expectations and just keep

going above and beyond for you for.

Until you get additional clients and
then, and then be a little bit stricter.

Climbing, not like that, though, if you
kind of pull back on your availability.

So just kind of reiterate that
this is what you're doing, this

is what you're available for.

Uh, this is why you're not
available for that kind of thing.

So what kind of things
are in your scope of work?

Well, one.

For that level of.

Thing I charged 9,500 us per month
for a maximum of three months.

Then I tried to downgrade them.

But I'll offer weekly deep
dive calls and often a weekly

implementation call as well.

So sometimes they'll have a marketing
manager already, so we'll do

kind of more of a strategic call.

How are things going?

Let's design the system.

Let's build out this project.

And then on the later call, let's call it.

You know, Monday we meet on strategy
and Thursday we meet on implementation.

I'll say, go and try to do this thing.

And then let's reconvene on Thursday and
I'll actually work through with this.

With you and write the copy of those
emails and help you develop that

strategy and help you build that
thing and kind of really just kind

of be there to do implementation.

What that does is it shows
people that, okay, here's

where I'm giving you direction.

Here's where we're creating
the plan, measuring things,

looking at things from a.

A broader perspective.

And this other call is where
we're going to get in the weeds.

So sometimes the CEO.

Is involved in that same Monday
call the strategy call, but

then we say, look, CEO, do.

I just don't don't even show
up to the Thursday call.

I'm going to work on this with someone
else on your team or one of the

other people on our outsource team.

So don't even worry about that unless
we need you, we'll pull you in.

But that's where you're actually
going to do implementation work.

And ideally you're not doing any
implementation or much implementation

outside of that second call.

So I always try to contain
implementation work to.

To calls because then it
keeps everything kind of neat.

And I can organize it and structure
time for it as a fractional CMO

though, that may not be completely.

Uh, possible for you.

There's going to be stuff you're going
to need to do outside of calls, as

opposed to an advisor relationship where.

Really.

They're buying access to your brains.

So there is no deliverables
outside of those calls.

So going back weekly, deep dive, weekly
implementation calls that kind of

creates two anchor calls in your week.

And that should be enough
to get a lot of things done.

That's number one, number two.

Uh, and you can obviously
do it however you want.

You can do three calls.

We can unlimited calls, whatever you want.

Uh, all my services are unlimited by
the way, but I try to structure anchor

calls so that everything kind of.

If there's need for extra
calls, we'll fit it in there.

Otherwise everything gets
plugged into those calls.

So what you will do versus what you'll
not do, and that this is where you

get really clear and an FAQ section
on your services page can really

help with this, or just a bulleted
list of what qualifies, what doesn't.

So things you might do
our proof of concept work.

So you might wireframe a piece
of a website or kind of create

a pencil drawing or, um,

Outline a plan or whatever else.

Um, you'll do a budget.

For example, you'll help
them hire people in you.

Uh, externally usually,
but sometimes internally.

You'll manage projects.

You'll, you'll maybe do some light
software configuration, but you're not

going to be the one to kind of Zapier
integrate all the things in the world.

So it's kind of contained to
light software configurations

and that sort of up to you.

Uh, to decide what that is all about.

But what you won't do potentially
is create, publish, ready content.

Do you know, web like live
website development, you may

not do real graphic designs.

And this is up to you.

If some people in the fractional CMO space
do more of this, you just need to decide.

Am I going to produce.

Basically ready to roll, ready to
publish content design development

stuff, because then where's the limit.

Then you have to sort of cap it.

What I like to see for fractional
CMOs is, and this goes for the other.

You know, the other forums as well.

Uh, is it, you know, if you're saying a
fractional chief, uh, uh, uh, technology

officer, I don't want you writing
full-on code, maybe a proof of concept

code, maybe some, uh, scratch concept,
maybe some sort of, uh, a plan for how

you're going to structure the code,
whatever, but not like ready to ship code.

Then, then you're basically a
set of hands and you're just

doing, you're just freelancing.

Uh, with a fancy title.

So I'd rather, you see, you do proof
of concepts, initial configurations,

kind of strategic thinking, budgeting,
planning, hiring, and management

of the stuff, but not execution.

So ideally there's lists with examples
in that gets baked into your services and

your service pages and your agreements.

But ideally you're not shipping.

Ready to go stuff.

You'll still get pulled into.

Hey, can you just write
this LinkedIn post?

Hey, can you just do this?

And that's where you say, look, let's
get a freelance writer on retainer,

on call so we can send over these
types of writing things to them.

I'll manage them, brief them, get them to
feed, make sure that the quality is there.

And that allows me to stay leveraged
and stay managing your work instead

of doing it and getting stuck in the
weeds, because there's just not enough

time in the day to do all the things.

And lead all the things and then
for you to have a life and have a

business and you'd have to charge,
you're basically full-time employee.

Once you start getting into that work.

So that to me has to be a cutoff that
has to be really clear in your FAQ is in

your service agreements, in your website.

Uh, as to what that is.

Another kind of lever or pieces
of your scope to have to follow

is who has access to you or not.

So do suppliers outside
suppliers have access to you?

Well, if you're managing them, yes,
they're going to have access to you.

You're gonna have to manage them.

Do employees that are outside of the
marketing environment have access to you.

Maybe, you know, but do you want.

You know, the salespeople coming to you
and saying, Hey, we need this thing.

And do you want the front desk person and
be like, Hey, can you print us this thing?

Can you design this thing?

I would say, no, I would try to
limit it to one person in the

organization and the CEO or whoever.

The person hiring you has access to you.

Otherwise it's third party vendors.

You can do whatever.

So all work requests sort
of from the client side.

Come through one person
and the CEO, maybe.

Or just the CEO, depending
on the size of the business.

Everything else.

Um, You know, nothing else comes
through otherwise it's, it can

be just a mess when you have.

15 people in the organization.

Uh, messaging about, Hey, I need
signage for the washrooms or.

I need this for something else.

Keno.

Can you design poster?

You're not there to receive
tasks in orders from everyone.

One person can give that to you.

Make sure that's really super
clear about who has access to

you in that, in that thing.

Other things might include.

Are you doing remote or in person?

I prefer not to work in person
because by the time I drive

somewhere park, Go into an office.

Like that's already hours of my day taken
up and my days are quite full already.

So, um, I always say
everything is, is remote.

If you want me in person, we can, we can
negotiate that I have a half day rate

of X or once a month or once a quarter
I can come in and we can do a workshop.

That's up to you, what you want to do
with that, but limit the in-person stuff.

If you can.

Uh, otherwise if you get pulled
into two days a week, they're

going to basically be treating you
like an employee two days a week.

If that's a bad precedent,
you want to be not.

Looking like an employer, it
would be treated like an employee.

And it's up to you to know how to
kind of navigate that and to push back

once it's starting to get a little bit
too much in the employee territory.

Another thing that isn't in the scope.

And this is a side note is I
don't really typically attend.

Employee events.

So if there's like a, you know, The
maybe pre COVID, there was more of

these kind of meat, you know, team.

Uh, bowling or food or whatever.

I don't really attend those because
it positions you as an employee and

it's, it's really up to you and how
you want to manage those relationships.

But I frankly, I just, I haven't,
it hasn't come up since COVID and

I just wouldn't do it anymore.

And most of my clients are remote.

But I would just be very careful
about getting too integrated.

As an employee, like person, because
it really does change how they perceive

your expertise and, uh, and then what
they're going to be wanting you to do.

And then they'll get offended when
you're not acting like an employee.

Like everyone else.

You're a consultant.

You have to remain a little bit,
a little bit distant in terms

of a professional distance.

And not be too employee looking.

What's next.

So will you use the company's
employee, your company's email address?

Uh, I typically.

I have I won't anymore.

I'll typically set up like a
marketing@yourbusiness.com and

that will be the marketing email
and anything I have set up.

You know, software wise or anything gets.

You know, signed up with
that particular account.

Uh, but I won't say take
kevin@yourbusiness.com because

it just creates a mess.

And then, then it's another
email to manage and then

it just too much confusion.

So that's how I manage that.

I really don't want
myself to be integrated.

That deeply.

I want to be.

I want to make myself
redundant whenever possible.

So that I can move into a different
tier, which I'll talk about in a sec.

So these are the things
that are in your scope.

You know, how will you organize things?

Will you store things on your servers
or there's, what are you promising

in terms of, uh, in terms of where
some of the files are going to be

I have that stuff in there.

Uh, explain, you know, if, if you
feel like there needs to be a limit

to the number of hours you work great.

But remember this is an advisory business.

This is a managed advisory service.

It's not a part-time
marketing manager work.

Otherwise it's execution now the what?

Then you have to set hours
and price and really create

limits on days, weeks, hours.

Uh, or months, however you do it.

So that's how I would do it.

So, you know, one of the
lenses I look at is if a CMO

wouldn't do it, neither do you.

So if you, if the CMO is not going
to sweep the floors, neither are you.

If the CMO is not going to publish
on social media, neither are you.

So that's kind of the lens I look for.

And I'm thinking like a corporate CMO.

So that's all number two
is creating a clear scope.

We've talked about setting
expectations, which is number one

during the sales conversation.

Number two is that clear scope and I gave
you a bunch of different parameters and.

Kind of areas that I create limits
around that really, really helps.

Number three is building your Rolodex.

And this is really where the
difference between, um, the CMO

who gets out of the weeds and not
is having a good set of people to

outsource and delegate the work to.

If you can't delegate the work,
you're going to be doing the work.

So your job is to be able to
find and hire the best people.

Great ways to do that are through
word of mouth and through, you

know, asking friends and saying,
who do you have a graphic designer?

Do you know this person, whatever
that's going to be, how you're

going to find people the fastest.

I know.

A friend of mine, Jordan from Cognito.

He tells me that he, you know, on
the down low we'll look up people

on LinkedIn from big agencies.

And see if they have anybody who's
working in the field that he needs,

and he might be able to get them.

You know, if you're looking for a highly
qualified person, look up the SEO at

your local big agency, and chances
are, they're going to Moonlight do some

work on the side, and they're gonna be
really high quality embedded as well

as a nice little way to get a part-time
freelancer to do a great job for you.

If you need to.

With minimal searching and minimal,
um, oversight, although always

manage on over, always oversee.

So, uh, and then other ways are like
Upwork and these other platforms,

and there's probably many more.

It's a referrals platforms and doing
some LinkedIn research, maybe poaching,

some part-timers from bigger agencies.

That's a good, good way to do it.

But you need this Rolodex and
you want to put them in direct

relationship with your client.

They, the client pays them.

You don't pay them.

You don't mark up their time.

You don't.

You know, middleman, anything,
you just manage the projects.

So it's up to them to negotiate with the
client, talk to the client, you'll do

the negotiating for them, but ultimately
the client signs a deal with them.

Uh, you want to make yourself
completely redundant again, that

that helps you to kind of remain.

Uh, at a level that, uh, doesn't,
I mean, people are, people want to

integrate themselves so much, but
then it becomes really messy and

complex part of selling this stuff is.

Is basically making yourself neutral
and a step removed and unbiased and

impartial to how work gets implemented.

And the only way you can do that is.

If you're not making money on the
implementation in my, in my opinion.

I talk about that a lot in other podcasts.

Um, why you should separate
strategy and execution anyway.

So that's number three
is build your Rolodex.

Number four is set an upper
limit on your time if needed.

So if you find yourself
getting in the weeds,

It's really a matter of saying,
okay, um, I need to set limits.

So maybe I'll make myself available
all day, Monday and all day Thursday.

And so everything we need
to do gets done on that.

And I'll be available to
answer questions or field.

An occasional call between that.

Otherwise I'll dedicate those two
days to working on your business.

That's one way to do it.

It's not ideal.

I haven't had to do that, but.

Rather than saying I'll
do 20 hours or 15 hours.

That's a, it's not great.

Or you say, I'll give you the
mornings of this, this, and this day.

For implementation and then whatever
we can get done in that time is great.

And that's up to you on how
you want to design that.

So that's the setting
an upper limit on time.

So if you find yourself, but that
that's usually a symptom that you're

getting too much into execution managing
shouldn't be that much of a full-time job.

You should be able to
manage a lot of work.

But, you know, it's easy to
get sucked in and because this

is your one and only client.

You're probably going to do more
execution work than you, then

you like, that's just realistic
because you want to do a good job.

You don't want to lose her only clients.

Just kind of the way it is.

So, uh, first get busy and
then get a little pickier under

scope I'd rather over deliver.

And then.

And then, uh, it keeps the client
versus the other way around.

As long as you're just not getting
taken advantage of obviously.

Number five.

And this is the last idea is plan
the down, sell to advisory work.

So I talk about this early and
often with clients, I'll say,

Hey, yes, I'll do this for you.

Now, my limit is.

Is three months on this.

Uh, Zemo plan and then
I won't do it anymore.

I just, I say maximum three months in the
service, and then I go to advisory work.

And I say the best thing you can
do is eventually hire someone to

do this in house and I'll move
to an advisory capacity and help

ensure the smooth transition.

Provide senior leadership, but ideally
you have a $70,000 marketing coordinator

whom I can mentor and train and get
developed on the systems and the

measurement and the performance tracking
and, and, and the organizational

structures, all the stuff that I talk
about and, uh, have templates for.

You'll get them.

They get them all set up in that.

And if you're interested in what
those templates are, just go to mind.

kevin.me/o S and I have a bunch of
templates where I share KPI sheets.

Uh, methodologies and like, how do
I organize things with my clients

and, uh, personas and all kinds
of document templates you can use

and start running with right away.

Um, if you need that stuff and that goes
for anyone listening to this as well.

So you just want to
plan that advisory work.

As part of your natural transition out the
door and that advisory work is going to

be you basically all the same stuff minus.

Any execution and minus any management.

So now when someone comes,
they're doing proof of concepts,

you're only on calls with them.

Guiding those proof of concepts
and setting the direction,

bringing in examples.

And a swipe file.

And you know, here are ways that I want to
do things, or if you do any deliverables

that becomes a template that you can
create and repeat over and over again.

And that's the natural transition
out of using your hands is how

do I create more templates?

And how do I keep a list of ideal examples
of the things that I'd like to accomplish?

This works really well if you're in a
niche, because then all of your examples

are really relevant to that niche.

But, um, again, You're going to
probably take on whatever clients you

can at the beginning, but your goal
is to create as many templates and

resources and assets that you can use
to then potentially sell it as a course

or products or memberships or other
leveraged form of selling your expertise.

That's downstream from where you are
refers to got to do the work you got

to create occasional deliverables.

Just think if I'm creating a deliverable,
how do I turn this into a template

or a repeatable process, which will
make my feature that much easier.

So just to recap one we're setting
expectations during the sales

conversations that you're not an employee
and kind of really just clarifying what

an employee is versus a contractor.

Just, just so that they're aware,
because they may be used to hiring

mostly employees and therefore not super
sure on what the boundaries need to be.

Number two is creating clear scope.

And we talked about all those
things that go into that.

There's probably many more, but
you learn these things as you go.

So just do your best with
that in the beginning.

Put it in into an agreement and
anytime a client breaches that sort

of boundary, make sure it's clear.

In the future on your services page.

Uh, just so you don't make that mistake.

Again, in the future.

That's how you make your services
better and more effective.

Number three is build a roll at
X higher, higher out everything.

You can try not to be
doing too much yourself.

Get someone in every category,
a writer, designer, developer.

How did these people around?

So you can delegate tasks
and projects as they come up.

And find people at different price
points that really helps as well.

Uh, to, to basically net out your
costs and say, well, you know, I'm

good, I'm good at finding people
who are a little less expensive than

your average agency and therefore it
kind of, uh, and that's up to a good.

Total price that the client
ends up paying overall.

So find people expensive and less
expensive and then bring different people

in as needed for different projects.

Number four is build an upper
limit on your time if needed.

Think about number of days
per week and number of calls.

You know, availability,
that kind of thing.

Uh, but that allows you to throttle
kind of the work that you do.

I prefer unlimited access to me, but,
um, it kind of depends on how much

you're getting sucked into the weeds.

Uh, and number five is planted
down, sell to adviser, works to

keep telling the client look.

The ideal situation is
someone takes this over.

Whether they're a full-time or part-time
coordinator, some clients will bring in

someone from an administrative role and
they'll become kind of like a, there'll

be a dual role, maybe sales and marketing.

Uh, and you can hand over a lot
of project management and task

management and, and proof of
concepts and execution work to them.

So that can work really well as well.

But basically the plan is to get them
into other, an employee full-time or

a part-time employee, and you would
move into an advisory capacity and

that's the most leveraged form of.

Of intervention that there is
other than selling products.

So I hope this helps.

I hope, you know, the first few
engagements, as I mentioned, they're not

going to be perfect, but they do get more
and more labs are leveraged over time.

Focus on delivering great value.

First and foremost, prove that value.

Get your reporting all set up again.

I've got a spreadsheet in that, in the
operating system at Kevin AMI slash.

Yes.

Prove the ROI of your work prove
the performance, your work.

Create visibility.

Um, and, uh, just do your best
and you know, all these things

will get better with time.

I know it's, it's a lot in the beginning
and, uh, As you get that second client

then focus on mostly selling advisory
services after that that's going to

help you as well hope this helps my
friend thank you for the question

and uh, i look forward to chatting
with you in the community bye for now